[Robert.Mauro]

Honda claims their 19 Pilot with SHAWD is class leading- Any thoughts?

Honda has been claiming it's the best system since 2004 when they came out with it. That's rarely panned out to be true. I do know that they've re-implemented it in the '19 Pilot, but haven't seen any comparisons or tests or real world applications yet, so, honestly, my biases against any of their claims aside, I don't know.

As for my biases, they stem from misleading claims, misleading labels (like the one attached that was designed to evoke the thoughts of 4WD when it's actually an "A"), misused labels (such as on the part time AWD CR-Vs that came with actual 4WD emblems instead of AWD emblems).

They once claimed they were continuously improving the AWD in the CR-Vs... they did the opposite by installing new lower duty rear ends and (as mentioned earlier) then programmed the system to transfer even less power to the rear so people didn't burn it out. Short version is, there's reasons I have little faith in their claims. :tango_face_wink:

Their VTM (i-VTM4) system is interesting, as well as their 70/30, 30/70 power split capabilities - but then again, Subaru's ATV and VDC system is pretty interesting too, and has the ability to do 100/0, 0/100 power splits.

Both have mechanisms for locking power at 50/50. It will be interesting to see if the 2019 Pilot's method beats Subaru's X-Mode.

Also, I am curious what the actual default power split is. Acura's use of the system is all over the place, including 90/10 bias and anticipatory power shifts and limitation on transferring power to the rear (50% or 70% max, depending on implementation). I dunno if that's a limitation of the rear ends (like on the new CR-Vs) or a limitation of the transmission and center differential.

I am presuming they've opted for their four channel brake controller (like Subaru), instead of their three channel design, but still looking for the specs. Honda does have both implementations.

Historically, the Honda Pilots have worse IIHS ratings than things like the Outback, but the 2019 Pilot is supposed to be a redesign, and my safety-related trust for the Subaru brand aside, the Ascent hasn't been tested yet. Time will tell.

 

[meyeracer06]

Yes, the DCCD system is very nice. But, owner controllable doesn't necessarily mean more advanced or better. In our case, except with enabling X-Mode, all of that is controlled by the computer. So, it's arguable which is more advanced or better. We're not driving a sports car where changing the bias to show off, spin wheels or jump off the line differently or handle drifting is something that'd likely be on our minds.

Having owned (and still own) a 2005 WRX manual transmisson (Viscous Center Differential AWD), a 2014 Forester XT (Active Torque Spilt AWD with X-Mode) and a 2016 STI (Multi-Mode DCCD AWD), I have been able to compare and contrast the different Subaru systems fairly well in similar conditions.

That being said, the STI's AWD system with DCCD is fantastic not only because of the adjustability of the DCCD, but more importantly because of the limited slip front and rear differentials working in unison with the lockable center differential. Because of the LSD's, you do not have to wait on the system to react like is necessary with the Active Torque Split system with its open differentials front and rear.

The Active Torque Split system with the added control of X-Mode is truly impressive, but the system requires the computer to determine where to send the necessary grip in order to control wheel spin. That does take time, which means you are at the mercy of the system processing the information quickly. I have had our Forester in some very low grip off road situations, and the X-Mode control with the Active Torque Split AWD is great at reducing wheel slippage and keeping control when conditions are poor. Due to this, I can agree in saying this system is the most "technologically advanced" AWD system in Subaru's history. It is also likely the most cost effective.

As far as one system being truly superior, I think it is difficult to eclipse the overall robustness, competency, and control of the STI's DCCD system with front and rear limited slip differentials. There is a reason the STI and it's drivetrain has been a leader on rally stages around the world for 2+ decades.

 

[Robert.Mauro]

Viscous Center Differential AWD... It is also likely the most cost effective.

As far as one system being truly superior, I think it is difficult to eclipse the overall robustness, competency, and control of the STI's DCCD system with front and rear limited slip differentials. There is a reason the STI and it's drivetrain has been a leader on rally stages around the world for decades.

Yep, that system is really impressive.

I think the mechanical viscous coupling based systems are actually more cost effective from a build and maintenance perspective. I base that on having to actually have mine rebuilt. Cheap as heck. Ridiculously so, and ridiculously easy as well. 180,000 miles of abuse burnt mine out. I still have the old viscous coupling in my workshop, lol (it's really pretty).

Because the drive and driven gears can be popped right out the rear, once the center differential cover is removed, along with the viscous coupling, it's ridiculously easy to work on. There's not much else back there (just some bearings and seals).

One of the things I miss about it was the feel of mechanically locked power to all four wheels. Totally different feel. I am sure part of that feel was that power was physically/mechanically locked from engine to wheel on my Outback because it was also a manual, so, once that clutch gripped, power was piston to wheel, with no torque converter allowing slip, and no variable electronic center diff clutch (just the big 25 plate viscous coupling locked to 50/50).

Every time I got a loaner, I distinctly noticed that difference. It would probably make the Ascent feel more truck-like, but, in my opinion, that's not a bad feel.

 

[Robert.Mauro]

Outback Touring Leather Panel?

It's going to be difficult to match the Java Brown leather exactly, so I think if you decide to do it, black leather would be a great choice.

I've been thinking about this, because I want to get a center console for between the two 2nd row captain's chairs. I am wondering if (a) the Java Brown matches other models (like the Outback Touring) and (b) if so, if one can buy the seat covering for one of those.

I figure the non-perforated seat front (or back even) would be enough for a variety of projects, such as re-covering an arm rest on an aftermarket center console.

Otherwise, I will try to match the steering wheel grey or just get black, like you're suggesting.

Hmm...

 

[meyeracer06]

Yep, that system is really impressive.

I think the mechanical viscous coupling based systems are actually more cost effective from a build and maintenance perspective. I base that on having to actually have mine rebuilt. Cheap as heck. Ridiculously so, and ridiculously easy as well. 180,000 miles of abuse burnt mine out. I still have the old viscous coupling in my workshop, lol (it's really pretty).

Because the drive and driven gears can be popped right out the rear, once the center differential cover is removed, along with the viscous coupling, it's ridiculously easy to work on. There's not much else back there (just some bearings and seals).

One of the things I miss about it was the feel of mechanically locked power to all four wheels. Totally different feel. I am sure part of that feel was that power was physically/mechanically locked from engine to wheel on my Outback because it was also a manual, so, once that clutch gripped, power was piston to wheel, with no torque converter allowing slip, and no variable electronic center diff clutch (just the big 25 plate viscous coupling locked to 50/50).

Every time I got a loaner, I distinctly noticed that difference. It would probably make the Ascent feel more truck-like, but, in my opinion, that's not a bad feel.

The viscous center differential in the manual cars (like my WRX and your Outback) is a very nice and cost effective system. I also agree with you on the feel. The weakness of that system is that it still relies on the front and rear differentials to maintain traction left to right and it lacks the impressive computer control of the Active Torque Split system.

What this means is that in my WRX, with a LSD rear differential and a open front diff, is that as long as the front end doesn't lose all traction at one wheel or more you have great grip. The issue is, with an open front differential (or front and rear open differentials in other models including later WRX's) you can still momentarily lose traction until the viscous coupling can "grab." It is fairly easy to get my WRX to spin a front tire on a hard launch or on throttle around a tight turn. This reason is why many rally cars with viscous center differentials will look to add a heavier / faster reacting center differntial to reduce that lag between when the wheel slippage occurs and the viscous coupling responds. 20KG Center Differential Upgrade

The STI DCCD system is an improvement over the viscous system, but it adds more complexity and cost. In most vehicles for most drivers, that is unnecessary and is why that system is still only present on the expensive STI.

Sorry to derail this thread! :/

 

[SSSCHON]

Thanks for sharing the AWD info. A few years ago I moved from a Legacy to Nissan. Didnt want to but wanted a bigger vehicle. I thought AWD was all the same. Boy was I wrong when the first snow fell. First I had to find the button to out it in AWD and it only worked if you are below 20mph! Reason why I was beyond excited when I saw Subaru was coming out with the Accent.?

 

[Robert.Mauro]

Thanks for sharing the AWD info. A few years ago I moved from a Legacy to Nissan. Didnt want to but wanted a bigger vehicle. I thought AWD was all the same. Boy was I wrong when the first snow fell. First I had to find the button to out it in AWD and it only worked if you are below 20mph! Reason why I was beyond excited when I saw Subaru was coming out with the Accent.?

I rented one when I had my Outback in for a new viscous coupling and some other work. Nissan Rogue SL-AWD... as you noticed, and as I found out, it's 100/0 FWD with very rare and tiny percent shift of power to the rear, except when you hit the "useless button" that disengages at anything but a crawl. :sad:

I do like that their power-to-the-wheels display (whatever it's called) accurately shows 100%/99% power to the front, instead of pretending its something that it's not. lain:

 

[rockthebeef]

Here's a new article.
https://www.motor1.com/reviews/262926/subaru-ascent-mazda-cx-9-comparison/

I posted earlier in this thread that I was on the fence between these vehicles. I took delivery of an Ascent Limited two days ago...

 

[gosub123]

Thanks for sharing the AWD info. A few years ago I moved from a Legacy to Nissan. Didnt want to but wanted a bigger vehicle. I thought AWD was all the same. Boy was I wrong when the first snow fell. First I had to find the button to out it in AWD and it only worked if you are below 20mph! Reason why I was beyond excited when I saw Subaru was coming out with the Accent.?

ooh good thing I read your assessment here - I got some misguided claims about awd on the Nissan in a subreddit and really was "tempted" by their low price tag. Where I am, awd performance in snow is pivotal due to the abundance of hills and massive amounts of snow in the winter.

thank you!

 

[Nemesis099]

ooh good thing I read your assessment here - I got some misguided claims about awd on the Nissan in a subreddit and really was "tempted" by their low price tag. Where I am, awd performance in snow is pivotal due to the abundance of hills and massive amounts of snow in the winter.

thank you!

They were probably talking about Nissan's 4WD system that was in the Xterra and Frontier that one was a pretty good system but is not AWD. Also I think the older Pathfinders used the same system as the Xterra but not the newer ones which switched to a soft AWD system with the CVT.


Saying that I go up North to the Adirondaks every year and my Subaru WRX had zero issues with the snow on roads that had 4-6 inches and I had all season tires on the car. In my opinion the AWD system from Subaru is the best you can get and the only company that has one on par is Jeep/Dodge.

 

[Orestes85]

They were probably talking about Nissan's 4WD system that was in the Xterra and Frontier that one was a pretty good system but is not AWD. Also I think the older Pathfinders used the same system as the Xterra but not the newer ones which switched to a soft AWD system with the CVT.


Saying that I go up North to the Adirondaks every year and my Subaru WRX had zero issues with the snow on roads that had 4-6 inches and I had all season tires on the car. In my opinion the AWD system from Subaru is the best you can get and the only company that has one on par is Jeep/Dodge.

I'd go out on a limb to say Mitsubishi's S-AWC system is better...in certain ways, but for what you're talking about...I feel that Subaru's AWD system is superior.

 

[SSSCHON]

ooh good thing I read your assessment here - I got some misguided claims about awd on the Nissan in a subreddit and really was "tempted" by their low price tag. Where I am, awd performance in snow is pivotal due to the abundance of hills and massive amounts of snow in the winter.

thank you![/QUOTE]


The only reason I bought the Rogue is I wanted a bigger vehicle and subaru didnt have one. I have been waiting for this Ascent for 3 years now?. Cant best a Subaru!

 

[MamaBear5]

I test drove the cx-9 today. This was my first time driving a Mazda. I was really impressed! My basic take is that it is smaller, tighter, and quieter than the Ascent.



The interior reminded me more of a station wagon than an SUV, which for me is not bad since I happen to like station wagons.



I traded my x3 for the ascent because we needed more room. Although the cx-9 is larger than the x3, I didn't feel like it was so much larger inside. One reason that I wanted a larger vehicle is because our son is in a car seat and I want to keep him rear facing as long as possible. In the x3 this meant that the passenger seat needed to be very close to the dash. In the ascent I feel like the passenger has a little more room. Since I needed to take my son with me on the test drive, I had a chance to see how the rear facing car seat would work behind the passanger's seat. By the time it was installed, the passenger's side felt just about where we were in the x3, pretty close up to the dash.


Overall I really liked the cx-9 and feel like it's what I have been missing in terms of driving pleasure with the Ascent. Aesthetically, I think both cars are really nice inside, although I hate that there is no 6 or 8 way adjustment for the passenger on the Ascent.

 

[jgervais16]

Wife and I drove both on the same day, and for whatever reason we liked the ascent better. Not sure why, because test data would say otherwise. She also said it looked like a Rental Car. I was rooting for the CX-9 ... but there you have it. Maybe it's because we are on our 5th Subaru and everything seemed familiar.

 

[GHP1]

The data shows the Ascent is quieter only around 64 DBA at 70 mph. It does come off as Outback competition not Ascent. The styling is more polarizing if you like that. It's a good choice but not mine .

 

[MamaBear5]

The data shows the Ascent is quieter only around 64 DBA at 70 mph. It does come off as Outback competition not Ascent. The styling is more polarizing if you like that. It's a good choice but not mine .

Interesting. I wonder if the Ascent was tested with or without the sunroof. I'm sure that will make a difference. The CX 9 has just a small sunroof. My Ascent has the large sunroof.

 

[GHP1]

Interesting. I wonder if the Ascent was tested with or without the sunroof. I'm sure that will make a difference. The CX 9 has just a small sunroof. My Ascent has the large sunroof.

I do believe it was a Touring. It was C&D article.

 

[MamaBear5]

I do believe it was a Touring. It was C&D article.

Good to know, thank you!

 

[Collin Smith]

I'm honestly surprised we are not seeing more people compare the Ascent to the Traverse. Having driven a lot of the competition in this class recently I'd actually choose the Traverse second to the Ascent. Pilot/Highlander are interchangeable in 3rd/4th. I'd put the CX-9 just ahead of the Atlas, Explorer and Pathfinder.

1. Ascent
2. Traverse
3. Pilot
4. Highlander
5. CX9
6. Atlas
7. Explorer
8. Pathfinder

I think it is a great time to buy. Almost any of these vehicles are decent. In doing research before purchasing I'd say my ranking is pretty similar to this. I think I would bump the CX9 above the Highlander but pretty close. For us the Ascent won out, but almost any of these vehicles would be a descent choice. I wouldn't stress too much over "getting the wrong one". All are descent, just the Ascent might be the best of the pile.

 

[NotAClunker]

... All are descent, just the Ascent might be the best of the pile.

How true... if it's not Ascent... it's a descent. :smile:
I agree with comparing the Ascent with the Traverse. It seems the Atlas and Ascent both "copied" the spec sheet of the Traverse, they are within tenths of an inch in most measurements. Even torque, power, etc. very similar. Still, the Ascent has better interior quality and Subaru reliability (still to be proven, though, being a new design).
I actually traded in a Traverse for the Ascent after 4 years. Loved the Traverse but it was time for a change after 6 times at the shop with the same issues. I think the ranking depends on what you value most, for my next vehicle I had simple requirements:

• space similar to the Traverse, including cargo space after the third row
• comfort equal or better than the Traverse
• more reliable than the Traverse

The first item alone disqualified most of the 3-row vehicles in the market. To me the third row is to be used at all times. If I can't fit my groceries with the 3rd row up, then it's pointless to have the 3rd row. This alone killed the Audi Q7, Mazda CX-9, Toyota highlander, among others (I loved the interior of the CX-9 BTW, best dashboard of the lot).
The second item left me with 3 choices: another Traverse, Atlas or Ascent. All others felt more cramped one way or the other.
Finally, the third requirement disqualified the new Traverse, as it's more of the same GM quality. The final decision between Ascent and Atlas was pricing. The Atlas with real leather and AWD was more money.