More LKA related questions for 2023

696 Views 25 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Steve70, 8 d ago

bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · 12 d ago

I understand how LKA works when the ACC is on that it actively keeps the car in the center. If I then turn the LKA off, does the car still nudge me away from the edge when I am about to crossing it? Someone blew the horn at me once so I am now scare to try. On the other had, while not using ACC driving on local roads, when the car is fast enough (>35MPH?), it will prevent me from crossing the line unless I use the turn signals. Shouldn't this feature work on the highway as well? This is not LKA, is it? And then we have the LDW, which just beeps and flashes but does not thing to correct me? Sorry I am confused ...

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bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · #2 · 12 d ago (Edited)

Wait, I think I got the terminology mixed up here. Correct me if I am wrong ...

Lane centering is the new feature in 2023 Ascent whereby the car can actively steer to keep it in the center of the lane. We turn it on by pressing the button on the steering wheel, and it will be active when ACC is on and active (=a speed is set). And then there is the Lane departure prevention (the manual does not call it LKA), which nudges the car to prevent it from crossing over to the neighboring lane. This feature can be turned on in the Settings. When it is ON, you see lane indicator lines by the side of the car in the CID. It works when the speed is >37MPH. LDP does not work when ACC is on and Lane Centering is not active, which is a surprise as one would expect it to work at all times, especially when Lane Centering is not active. This is probably why I almost crossed into another lane when ACC was on but lane centering was not active? Did I just answer my own question? In addition, there is the Lane Departure Warning, which just beeps when I cross the lane, but does nothing to prevent it. This is on when the speed is >30MPH. Finally there is the Lane Sway Warning, which operates at >37MPH but stops at 25MPH.

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Daniel Acosta

· #3 · 12 d ago

LKA works regardless of cruise control or LC provided you have it on; LC always takes priority over LKA provided it's activated and lane lines are visible. If no lane lines are shown in the display, that means everything is off, no lane lines are visible, or you have your turn signal on.

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bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · #4 · 11 d ago

@DA: what you wrote is the logical thing to do, but here is what I found in the manual on p115 (attached) describing when the Lane Departure Prevention function won't work:

If Lane Centering indicator is white (in standby mode) while ACC is on, Lane Departure Prevention Function will not activate.

Also in the same section this sentence is mighty confusing:

"If you just lightly put your hands on the steering wheel for a certain period pf time or if you do not operate the steering wheel, the [Lane departure prevention] function will temporarily be canceled"

Isn't the latter case, when one failed to operate the steering, exactly when we need Lane departure prevention to work? My wife Forester's lane departure prevention is more aggressive and I can clearly tell it is working (and sometimes too much so), but in the Ascent I am still figuring out when I can trust the system when I need to be alert.

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Titanrx8

· #5 · 11 d ago

bdjfywi4$ said:
"If you just lightly put your hands on the steering wheel for a certain period pf time or if you do not operate the steering wheel, the [Lane departure prevention] function will temporarily be canceled"

I tried lane centering for the first time while on the interstate last night (still daylight and clear weather). First, it has no idea where to place the Ascent on the new express lanes where the pavement is white and the lines are parallel black and white (For day/night/rain visibility). It was happy to let the car wander with no nudges despite all functions turned on. I only did this on sections where I was the only car. The driver monitor is also a nag on long sweeping curves where I would be looking ahead into the curve but that's another discussion.

Headed home later after dark, I tried again by very lightly holding the wheel with both hands. For several miles of straightaways mixed with gentle, long sweeps, it had no trouble keeping the car centered. I felt like it was hugging the left line more than the right but turned on the 360 view and the car was very nearly centered very consistently. I was quite impressed but very vigilant to intervene if needed. The driver tracking threw every one its us warnings at me - hands on wheel, pay attention, take a break - but it didn't shut off the centering.

I actually found it interesting that if you're using centering that it was designed to require the driver to countermand its guidance pretty frequently to make the warnings stop. I guess it's Subaru's way of telling us that it isn't self-driving. At this point I'm not sure when to use it or if I will use it much (3 years with the 2020 and LKA was turned off 3 days after buying it and never turned on again). If I had passengers it could make an interesting demonstration but I'm not convinced that it relieves the driver of stress (or makes driving less tiring) if you use it but have to periodically decide when to take over from the system.

I will make a positive observation about the lane departure and centering in the 2023. When active, even at low speeds, it stiffens the amount of steering effort required. I always found the 2020 power steering to be overly boosted and in the 2023 the extra steering effort required is a welcome change in behavior. I haven't been in strong cross winds yet but hopefully the 2023 is more immune than the 2020 with its very sensitive steering.

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bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · #6 · 11 d ago

@Titanrx8: I agree when LC is engaged, it is impressive, but the main problem for some of us is that we don’t know when it can be used to be helpful. It seems if our hands are on the steering wheel, steering, why do we need LC to be on? LC should kick in when the car wonders off due to an inattentive driver whose hands are not steering. May be we need to always keep one hand on the steering wheel when we need the other hand to do something and LC can help to keep the car on track?

Jim_in_PA

· #7 · 11 d ago

bdjfywi4$ said:
It seems if our hands are on the steering wheel, steering, why do we need LC to be on?

The driver always has to be "in control" which is why one has to have at least light contact with the wheel at all times. This is not self driving autopilot. The idea of the feature is to (conceivably) reduce stress in long distance driving. But as has been noted, one of the big challenges with features like this is that roads are often not clearly marked or as in one example, marked in "non standard" ways. I'd personally only use this feature on long distance Interstate travel where there is the greatest benefit and greatest chance that the road will be supportive of the visual clues required for the vehicle to do what it does.

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Titanrx8

· #8 · 11 d ago

Jim_in_PA said:
The driver always has to be "in control" which is why one has to have at least light contact with the wheel at all times. This is not self driving autopilot. The idea of the feature is to (conceivably) reduce stress in long distance driving. But as has been noted, one of the big challenges with features like this is that roads are often not clearly marked or as in one example, marked in "non standard" ways. I'd personally only use this feature on long distance Interstate travel where there is the greatest benefit and greatest chance that the road will be supportive of the visual clues required for the vehicle to do what it does.

Yup, completely turn off lka and centering anywhere that YOU find the lane markings confusing, ie construction zones. Just imagine the logic it would take the automation to realize that "those" old markings that lead right into the construction barriers shouldn't be followed.

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Steve70

· #9 · 10 d ago

I think most people consider themselves good drivers...for many decades. That presents a bit of a problem for OEMs when they introduce / upgrade their 'safety suites' I think it possible the parameters they come up with pertain more to the 'best' driving techniques. None will be perfect. All will be upgraded.

That said, I've found most aspects of the Subaru system to be somewhat unobtrusive...especially the LKA function. So saying, I leave it on. There have a handful of times over our total Ascent miles when it got confused a tad in 'changing' construction zone conditions and I had to reel it in. But overall, I find it works pretty darn good. It helps that I never don't use my turn signal to change lanes..always have.

Lane centering basically rachets up the LKA sensitivity to a narrower zone the way I see it. This feature we don't use too often. If we do, it's on open freeway with more sparse traffic and lighter winds. I prefer a little more control with 100s of semis in our path

I'm completely OK with the driver alert function. It seldom triggers and when it does...it should. I'll add that bright morning sunlight coming in from the driver's side will temporirily disable it. I thought it was malfunctioning this past winter, but it came back on by itself as sun input got less from the side. The only time the 'hands on wheel' alert has ever triggered is when I was testing the system out or showing it to somone.

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Jim_in_PA

· #10 · 10 d ago

One thing that Robert pointed out quite a while ago now is that many folks (largely good drivers, in fact) do not actually realize how much their vehicle "wanders" while they are driving and that what makes these new lane oriented features frustrating/annoying. As we look around to keep track of what's happening in front of us, to the side of us and to the rear, our hands actually tend to move. And, of course, that means there are variations in steering that naturally occur. So we can either turn off the warnings or consciously take up the challenge to "drive even better" so the vehicle screams at us less and less and less.

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Steve70

· #11 · 10 d ago

@Jim_in_PA Robert is right, but here's something to try out..as relates to hands moving around. I've had some high speed driving / car control schools. The very first lesson I got was about 'visual scanning' (as this school called it..it's now called the Ron Fellows school in Pahrump, NV...I'm told they still teach the course like the founder did.. Rupert Bragg-Smith. It was two quonset huts and a track when I went in 2002). In other words...looking out in front of you as far as you can to assess what's coming. Connected to this thought is the idea that the 'hands follow the eyes' Here's a way to check this out. Find a long sweeper where you live and look up around the corner as far as you can see as you get into it. The hands will follow the eyes and you should maintain the same arc all the way through the corner. Pretty amazing how well it works. Visual scanning is a very good tool to employ for all driving and tends to keep you centered and more defensive....unless you already have bad habits from before

I consider myself a very defensive driver, have driven countless miles in very adverse conditions in the winter getting to work, and have over 1.75M road miles. I also have some race track and autocross experience. In over 55 years of licensed driving, I've never had an at fault accident..or any collisons with a vehicle. (knock on big wood) I'm pretty certain my driving means and methods are the reason I get along quite well with the safety suite in the Ascent.

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bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · #12 · 9 d ago

I don't expect self-driving to be a reality any time soon. However, I do want the car to take over for a briefly moment when either it senses there is an imminent danger or the driver needs help (to pick up a dropped item, to help the kids ...etc). Thus if LC/DPF only work when the driver is already steering, it does not seem to go far enough. For example, the car can take over and call for help if the driver is suffering from heart attack, stoke, seizure, or kidney stone. Or to have a "Self driving" button, which when pressed the car will keep going at the current speed and stay in the center for 3 min at a time, when the driver needs to take care of things in the car ...

May be soon the car can help the next driver to avoid a situation I found myself in last summer: We came off the highway to look for a place to eat, and I was distracted by all the discussions (and complaints). The exit has a curve that is sharper than expected so car entered it faster then it should. There was a big pot hole by the left side of the lane, and I don't remember whether it was entirely outside the lane or partially in the lane, but the car hit it hard, and the front tire popped. I was wondering at the time whether LC could have saved it.

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Titanrx8

· #13 · 9 d ago

bdjfywi4$ said:
I don't expect self-driving to be a reality any time soon. However, I do want the car to take over for a briefly moment when either it senses there is an imminent danger or the driver needs help (to pick up a dropped item, to help the kids ...etc). Thus if LC/DPF only work when the driver is already steering, it does not seem to go far enough. For example, the car can take over and call for help if the driver is suffering from heart attack, stoke, seizure, or kidney stone. Or to have a "Self driving" button, which when pressed the car will keep going at the current speed and stay in the center for 3 min at a time, when the driver needs to take care of things in the car ...

May be soon the car can help the next driver to avoid a situation I found myself in last summer: We came off the highway to look for a place to eat, and I was distracted by all the discussions (and complaints). The exit has a curve that is sharper than expected so car entered it faster then it should. There was a big pot hole by the left side of the lane, and I don't remember whether it was entirely outside the lane or partially in the lane, but the car hit it hard, and the front tire popped. I was wondering at the time whether LC could have saved it.

I seem to remember Subaru advertising potholes avoidance in the Outback a couple of years ago.

Steve70

· #14 · 9 d ago

@bdjfywi4$ I think lane centering only works when the Adaptive cruise is on?

Even if active, I'd be surprised if the car would violently correct in the situation you described?

In my mind, if something happens in the car.. You need to pull over and stop... Especially something with a kid in a back seat or to find something that fell somewhere challenging to get

Titanrx8

· #15 · 9 d ago

Steve70 said:
@bdjfywi4$ I think lane centering only works when the Adaptive cruise is on?

Even if active, I'd be surprised if the car would violently correct in the situation you described?

In my mind, if something happens in the car.. You need to pull over and stop... Especially something with a kid in a back seat or to find something that fell somewhere challenging to get

Yeah, there's a slippery slope moving from, I just need a sec to pick up the pacifier to gee, I'm going to turn around and rummage through the cooler for a snack.

And yes, I was rear-ended in my Mazda while stopped at a red light when a mom in the car behind me ducked down to pick up a pacifier.

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bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · #16 · 9 d ago

Safety features are there for the unexpected, which is why I found the current Ascent logic lacking in ambition, and I have to test whether it can accomplish the very modest goal of making the road trip not as tiring. What can really make a difference is to save us from actions that are highly risky. Unexpected means that sometimes we react as a reflex, we flinch, panic. e.g., Kids pee or throw up in the car, love one is having a heart attack, things that cause a momentary panic when stuck in the traffic with no easy place to pull over.

Steve70

· #17 · 9 d ago

I realize your examples are a bit generic, but I don't see those examples as something the car should instinctively take over for. You need a fully autonomous driving car. The Subaru is not that. Subaru safety stuff is so far designed to aid.. not to drive the car.

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Sparkland

· #18 · 9 d ago

I have a question about the Subaru safety system. The Kia system we had in our 2022 Sorento Hybrid was one of the best we have ever driven. I only mention this because I know the first response posts would be about how terrible the Kia/Hyundai safety systems are.

This photo is of a Hyundai Santa Cruz. The driver accidently clipped a tree on a narrow road and basically totaled out the vehicle. Would the Subaru system have prevented the vehicle from hitting the tree in the first place or does the object have to be directly in the line of sight of the center of the vehicle rather than off to the side in order to be recognized and avoided by the Ascent.

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bdjfywi4$

Discussion Starter · #19 · 9 d ago

Sparkland said:
Would the Subaru system have prevented the vehicle from hitting the tree in the first place or does the object have to be directly in the line of sight of the center of the vehicle rather than off to the side in order to be recognized and avoided by the Ascent.

That is the whole purpose of this post —what you wish the Ascent could do vs what it will actually do when you NEED it the most.

I had one experience on the highway to tell me that Ascent has "peripheral vision:" I was on the highway with both ACC and LC on. As the car went over a slight incline on the road, a car on my left appeared to want to cut in front of me (but it didn't), and the Ascent braked momentarily, which spooked me. This incident taught me that Ascent saw the car coming in my direction and tried to slow down to avoid a collision. Keep in mind that Ascent also has emergency steering to clear an obstacle if a collision is imminent ... I have my finger crossed that my Ascent can keep me safe in the situation you described.

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Titanrx8

· #20 · 8 d ago

Sparkland said:
I have a question about the Subaru safety system. The Kia system we had in our 2022 Sorento Hybrid was one of the best we have ever driven. I only mention this because I know the first response posts would be about how terrible the Kia/Hyundai safety systems are.

This photo is of a Hyundai Santa Cruz. The driver accidently clipped a tree on a narrow road and basically totaled out the vehicle. Would the Subaru system have prevented the vehicle from hitting the tree in the first place or does the object have to be directly in the line of sight of the center of the vehicle rather than off to the side in order to be recognized and avoided by the Ascent.

There was a post a while back by an Ascent owner complaining that their Ascent didn't prevent them from hitting a tree in front of them when they were parking. They thought that precollision braking should have stopped the car. No Ascent has front proximity sensors or front automatic braking and pcb is for highways. Even then it may only reduce the severity of a crash.

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