Subaru Ascent Forum banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sales guy wouldn't search the Ascent I was looking for and said they could only order one for delivery in Oct. They had a couple premiums onsite but nothing i wanted.
Went down the street and an 1hr later they said it would be here in a couple days and it was about 100 miles out.

Don't let these dealers tell you an order is the only way to get the color and trim your looking for....there may be one within a couple hundred miles that they could do a dealer swap with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Subiesailor

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
Dealers are NOT going to dealer trade an Ascent right now. We sure aren't trading out any of ours, neither are any other dealers in ATL, Columbus, Montgomery, Birmingham, or Macon. Other things dealers aren't trading right now are Crosstreks.

A dealer could _possibly_ trade one Ascent for another if they had the exact same car but in a color the other dealer needed for a customer...but it's highly unlikely because they'll be able to give you a better price on the one they have than the one they'll be trading for. Dealerships are all individual entities, and even the same manufacturer within an autogroup doesn't mean we'll necessarily play nice with each other. If the dealership tells you an order is the only way, I'd say with 90% certainty that its the only way -they- can provide you the vehicle you want. The other 10% is the unlikelihood that they have an Ascent that the other dealer wants, and that dealer doesn't particularly need the one he has.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Very strong statement.
They traded for mine just the other week. Possible i just got really lucky that the dealer in WI needing a Red Touring and couldn't sell their Tungsten limited 8pass. I'm just saying don't give in so easy...if i did i wouldnt be driving mine until October. 37,289 invoice and paid just over 38.

That fact that he didn't even search and ask the dealer in WI if they would trade is what is surprising. If that dealer said yes wouldn't they have made a least a sale a few bucks?
The sales manger made a follow up call and i did mention to her i already purchased one and it was exactly what i was looking for. She was going to follow up the sales guy to see what happened.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
My point here is that dealerships aren't as dishonest and shady as people want to believe they are (of course there are some out there still). If a dealership tells you something its probably true (or maybe all the dealerships I have experience with are just the exception...). They -want- to sell you a car. They -want- to sell you a car that they have or can get, but it's very likely they tried to get a car from that dealership in the past and they just flat out told them no, so the people you're dealing with aren't gonna keep barking up the same tree.

We have certain dealers in our region that we don't bother asking for a trade because they just flat out won't do it, we'd have to purchase the car from that dealer (at invoice of course), which means we're not getting a holdback from the manufacturer (and that dealer we bought it from does) which means we can't give you the price you want. There is a lot of info on how dealerships are terrible, yadda yadda, all written by people who haven't been in the industry, or were in the industry in the 80s/90s which is where all the stigma around dealerships came from in the first place. Consumers read all the online advice, blogs, articles and get just enough insight into what the industry used to be, and that's about 1% of the information they'd need if they were going to make a decision based off inside the industry information. You don't read an article about mechanical engineering and then go tell an engineer how to build a better cargo ship.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
978 Posts
Dealers will trade same models for color swap etc easily. But if they don’t have anything to swap then your out of luck. You can’t swap up premium for a limited or Touring doesn’t work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
978 Posts
My point here is that dealerships aren't as dishonest and shady as people want to believe they are (of course there are some out there still). If a dealership tells you something its probably true (or maybe all the dealerships I have experience with are just the exception...). They -want- to sell you a car. They -want- to sell you a car that they have or can get, but it's very likely they tried to get a car from that dealership in the past and they just flat out told them no, so the people you're dealing with aren't gonna keep barking up the same tree.

We have certain dealers in our region that we don't bother asking for a trade because they just flat out won't do it, we'd have to purchase the car from that dealer (at invoice of course), which means we're not getting a holdback from the manufacturer (and that dealer we bought it from does) which means we can't give you the price you want. There is a lot of info on how dealerships are terrible, yadda yadda, all written by people who haven't been in the industry, or were in the industry in the 80s/90s which is where all the stigma around dealerships came from in the first place. Consumers read all the online advice, blogs, articles and get just enough insight into what the industry used to be, and that's about 1% of the information they'd need if they were going to make a decision based off inside the industry information. You don't read an article about mechanical engineering and then go tell an engineer how to build a better cargo ship.
BS todays dealers are 10x worse they have dealer service packages of made up bull for 500% mark up. They have Auto Groups that manipulate the local regional pricing on everything from vehicle prices, service prices and even tech pay.

Add in the BULL around massive warranty markups for filling out a 3 minute form the owner can fill out at home.

States need to start filing lawsuits for consumer protections like charging for services not rendered but purchased. Monopoly actions etc. Its become so bad in some regions many of my friends stopped buying new and I’m nearly there my self.

Go read the Florida thread. $5000 over msrp is insane!! Just buy a better vehicle if your spending that much. Geeze people
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
BS todays dealers are 10x worse they have dealer service packages of made up bull for 500% mark up. They have Auto Groups that manipulate the local regional pricing on everything from vehicle prices, service prices and even tech pay.

Add in the BULL around massive warranty markups for filling out a 3 minute form the owner can fill out at home.

States need to start filing lawsuits for consumer protections like charging for services not rendered but purchased. Monopoly actions etc. Its become so bad in some regions many of my friends stopped buying new and I’m nearly there my self.

Go read the Florida thread. $5000 over msrp is insane!! Just buy a better vehicle if your spending that much. Geeze people
I'm going to take a small amount of offense here since you've, in a round about way, questioned my integrity so I'll break it down for you.

The difference is, the pricing is up front. You can just opt out. If you purchased a car in the 80s, chances are you got hosed and didn't even know it. 25 years ago, a decent car salesman was making well into 6 figures and did so buy screwing people over. Now the average is in the 50k range and more than half of that is from a the draw. I think the average subaru sales salary is mid to high 40s.

Just because you don't agree with pricing doesn't mean its bad. If you don't want it, don't buy it. If I can't afford to pay for something, I don't buy it. Nowadays everyone wants the car at cost and apparently it's the big bad dealership trying to take all your money away if they make a penny. I don't see many manufacturer dealerships hiding anything, and its been years since i've seen a 4 square model used (and we don't allow them at all)

The autogroup I work for (the second largest in the world) lists out all the fees (we have one, a doc fee that is pretty much industry standard), has no "service package" (IDK how you can charge a markup on "made up bull" either) and we certainly don't manipulate regional pricing. We routinely lose customers to people with lower pricing for one reason or another, and our labor rate and tech pay isn't outrageous. MSRP is set by the manufacturer and nearly every car we sell is sold at or very near (higher or lower) than invoice...so the only entity manipulating pricing here would be the manufacturer because we don't set our own invoice price.

Part of the reason for markups, is because nobody wants to pay a fair (and fair doesn't just mean for the buyer, btw) price for their new car, so...money has to be made somewhere. If profits weren't built into other items, nobody would be in business or you'd be getting offered insultingly low numbers for your trade, and you'd be paying MSRP for the vehicle. Fact is, very few vehicles sell anywhere near MSRP and plenty (read: LOTS) sell for a front end loss. Customers think they're sticking it to the "man" when all their doing is taking money out of the pocket of the sales person. We've come to expect something unreasonable from dealerships yet...we don't go to walmart and demand that you pay invoice less 2% for a new TV, and you certainly don't tell the contractor you're only paying for the cost of materials on the new house he just built.

Fact is, nobody wants to pay anything over cost for a product that is a luxury and a convenience, and sometimes the methods of the old days of car sales have carried over, because back then they were lowballing by -thousands- of dollars on trade ins, and marking up cars thousands of dollars, and plenty of people had no idea.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107 Posts
BS todays dealers are 10x worse they have dealer service packages of made up bull for 500% mark up. They have Auto Groups that manipulate the local regional pricing on everything from vehicle prices, service prices and even tech pay.

Add in the BULL around massive warranty markups for filling out a 3 minute form the owner can fill out at home.

States need to start filing lawsuits for consumer protections like charging for services not rendered but purchased. Monopoly actions etc. Its become so bad in some regions many of my friends stopped buying new and I’m nearly there my self.

Go read the Florida thread. $5000 over msrp is insane!! Just buy a better vehicle if your spending that much. Geeze people
Subiesailor-you hit the nail on the head-everything you said is spot on for quite a few auto groups out their. Then the rare bird like the small dealership in Tilton N.H. where i got mine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
I'm going to take a small amount of offense here since you've, in a round about way, questioned my integrity so I'll break it down for you.

The difference is, the pricing is up front. You can just opt out...

Nowadays everyone wants the car at cost and apparently it's the big bad dealership trying to take all your money away if they make a penny. I don't see many manufacturer dealerships hiding anything, and its been years since i've seen a 4 square model used (and we don't allow them at all)
It's nice having this perspective from the sales/dealer side of things. Buying a car still very much feels like an us vs them situation at too many dealerships. A lot of people buying cars wonder why dealerships need to exist now though, myself included. A dealership adds onto the cost of the car and it feels like very little benefit is added. I get an often stressful buying experience, a numbers game to be mindful of the entire process, so much extra stuff (warranties, undercoatings, etc) to say "no" to 3 times or more. The big bad dealership doesn't need to make money, it's positioned itself in the middle so it can create profit off of the customer and manufacturer. I'd rather buy at invoice directly from Subaru and cut out the middle man.

My own Subaru buying experience was good, not great. Not like the Nissan dealership I walked out of just before buying the Ascent that tried to use the 4 square model and would never talk about price. Subaru still had the $300 document fee and the ridiculous 3rd parties warranties though.

This position of mine, that dealerships are an unnecessary middleman, doesn't take into account a few of the conveniences that a dealer brings. A large dealer lot to browse in, an attached and certified service shop, and the relative ease a dealer finance office operates with in getting everyone a loan that wants one. Still, the buying process sucks and sites like TrueCar or Costco auto buying program are evidence that a number of people want it to be easier. Carmax itself is proof that a more straight forward business model works, but I wonder how it would be if they sold new cars too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
Buying a car still very much feels like an us vs them situation at too many dealerships.
I want to address this from my own personal perspective: If you are my customer, the only reason you'll feel this way is because you came in that way. I make it a point to get my customers what they want. I offer them Starlink, if they say no, I drop it. If they ask what the invoice price is, I tell them. If they ask me for something I can't do, I tell them no and here is why. I still get people, after me being as transparent as possible, trying to figure out how I'm screwing them, or them being unreasonable and accusing me of something shady. If you have a bad attitude towards a car purchase, you're at a very high risk to having a bad purchasing experience. Here's something most people don't do, and I have NO idea why...if you don't like your salesman, tell the sales manager you want someone else (and tell him specifically why, so he can fix it or clarify a misunderstanding).

A lot of people buying cars wonder why dealerships need to exist now though, myself included. A dealership adds onto the cost of the car and it feels like very little benefit is added. I get an often stressful buying experience, a numbers game to be mindful of the entire process, so much extra stuff (warranties, undercoatings, etc) to say "no" to 3 times or more. The big bad dealership doesn't need to make money, it's positioned itself in the middle so it can create profit off of the customer and manufacturer. I'd rather buy at invoice directly from Subaru and cut out the middle man.
See also: Walmart, Costco, Bestbuy, Publix, Macy's, gas stations, etc. Buying direct from the manufacturer will cost you more than the dealership model, because they're going to charge you -thousands- more than what you pay at a dealership, because they're going to have to set up an entire infrastructure to ship vehicles to consumers, or they're going to have to purchase every single dealership that sells their brand and they're going to charge the consumer for it. It's a nice thought, but it isn't possible. Amazon can't put free 2 day shipping on 4000lbs.


This position of mine, that dealerships are an unnecessary middleman, doesn't take into account a few of the conveniences that a dealer brings. A large dealer lot to browse in, an attached and certified service shop, and the relative ease a dealer finance office operates with in getting everyone a loan that wants one. Still, the buying process sucks and sites like TrueCar or Costco auto buying program are evidence that a number of people want it to be easier. Carmax itself is proof that a more straight forward business model works, but I wonder how it would be if they sold new cars too.

The buying process only sucks as much as you and your sales consultant make it. My best advice to remedy this. When you're buying a new car, go to the dealer and talk to a few different people that are available, just chit chat with some of the sales people as time allows. Don't talk about buying a car. Get them into a conversation. You should be able to get a good feel of what kind of person they are. When you find someone you like, tell them what you're trying to do, and ask them to help you out. He'll be more likely to work harder, and less pushy, because you came to him with the intent to purchase, and he's not feeling like he's chasing a sale that may end up wasting hours of his time that he won't be getting paid for.

If every car from every manufacturer were nearly the same (looks, performance, luxuries), dealerships wouldn't be as entrenched as they are, but until the day comes where everything is about the same, you'll still have 100% commissioned sales people selling cars. This is because often the biggest reason you buy X over Y is because someone convinced you that X is better. You may not realize it, but that's usually the case. It may have been the commercial, or an article you read about X's companies tech being superior, or the salesman for X told you something in a way you could relate to better than the salesman for Y.

Edit: Carmax would be CRUSHED if they tried the approach with new vehicles. They could offer no haggle pricing at under MSRP, but a dealership nearby is going to beat them, and still turn a profit at the end of the year. Reason is dealerships have found a way to give the customer what they think they want (invoice or less) and still make money (hold backs, doc fees, etc). Carmax would have to pursue the same model and just flat rate at invoice price to be competitive, and then they're just leaving money on the table (and that's bad for any business). It wouldn't be profitable, in my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
Hey, at least we have the internet now, can talk to each other,, research and even find out where other dealerships are located by searching the internet. No need to buy local. Most dealership 150 miles away wouldn't take out an ad in the Yellow Pages. Ah yes, the good old days :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
I want to address this from my own personal perspective:

The buying process only sucks as much as you and your sales consultant make it.
Can you make this into a t-shirt for both customers and salespeople to wear? My smoothest vehicle purchases have been straight and to the point.

I appreciate the other points you make as well, the transition to a manufacturer owned sales channel has a huge amount of barriers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
So what was preventing you from searching yourself on the internet? It appears that all Subaru dealerships have the same website so searching is consistent from dealer to dealer. That’s how I found my Ascent on a dealer lot in NH. If you are in New England you search all inventory on the SNE site.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
Can you make this into a t-shirt for both customers and salespeople to wear? My smoothest vehicle purchases have been straight and to the point.

I appreciate the other points you make as well, the transition to a manufacturer owned sales channel has a huge amount of barriers.
I might take it down to a print shop and have it framed and put behind my desk on the wall...:devil:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
My point here is that dealerships aren't as dishonest and shady as people want to believe they are (of course there are some out there still). If a dealership tells you something its probably true (or maybe all the dealerships I have experience with are just the exception...). They -want- to sell you a car. They -want- to sell you a car that they have or can get, but it's very likely they tried to get a car from that dealership in the past and they just flat out told them no, so the people you're dealing with aren't gonna keep barking up the same tree.

We have certain dealers in our region that we don't bother asking for a trade because they just flat out won't do it, we'd have to purchase the car from that dealer (at invoice of course), which means we're not getting a holdback from the manufacturer (and that dealer we bought it from does) which means we can't give you the price you want. There is a lot of info on how dealerships are terrible, yadda yadda, all written by people who haven't been in the industry, or were in the industry in the 80s/90s which is where all the stigma around dealerships came from in the first place. Consumers read all the online advice, blogs, articles and get just enough insight into what the industry used to be, and that's about 1% of the information they'd need if they were going to make a decision based off inside the industry information. You don't read an article about mechanical engineering and then go tell an engineer how to build a better cargo ship.
The thing is they didn't even know the dealer in WI had one, because he wouldn't even check. That's what was odd....he took the time to bring us on a test drive and everything was going well enough and i was planning on buying from that dealer. Maybe he thought he could get me to order one and not go through the trouble of going through a dealer trade. Anyways the other dealer was very nice and only took him 2 days to have the car ready for pickup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
561 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So what was preventing you from searching yourself on the internet? It appears that all Subaru dealerships have the same website so searching is consistent from dealer to dealer. That’s how I found my Ascent on a dealer lot in NH. If you are in New England you search all inventory on the SNE site.
I did...i looked at the dealers sites with a few hundred miles and for whatever reason the one i wanted wasn't listed at that dealer. Tungsten 8pass with no moonroof i guess is a rare combo. If you look on cars.con or edwards that color is the least common one available. I guess dealers aren't always updated their sites.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
The thing is they didn't even know the dealer in WI had one, because he wouldn't even check. That's what was odd....he took the time to bring us on a test drive and everything was going well enough and i was planning on buying from that dealer. Maybe he thought he could get me to order one and not go through the trouble of going through a dealer trade. Anyways the other dealer was very nice and only took him 2 days to have the car ready for pickup.
well, that would be odd, since a dealer trade would be easier than ordering.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
BS todays dealers are 10x worse they have dealer service packages of made up bull for 500% mark up. They have Auto Groups that manipulate the local regional pricing on everything from vehicle prices, service prices and even tech pay.

Add in the BULL around massive warranty markups for filling out a 3 minute form the owner can fill out at home.

States need to start filing lawsuits for consumer protections like charging for services not rendered but purchased. Monopoly actions etc. Its become so bad in some regions many of my friends stopped buying new and I’m nearly there my self.

Go read the Florida thread. $5000 over msrp is insane!! Just buy a better vehicle if your spending that much. Geeze people
I am liking Subiesailor more and more each day! But there is also a part of me that realizes the dealer has to make money - but how much - is the issue. I personally am going to let the dust fall, and try to negotiate a fair price for myself in November or December, for either the Ascent or the new Forester! I am absolutely not opposed to going to Colorado, if my local dealerships in central florida, or the southeast are inflexible. Paying attention to what goes on in this forum, better equips all of us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
I just want to point out that we have a fairly 'free market' which is what allows, say, dealers in FL to tack on $5000, and that's what upsets people. Ironically, it's due in part to the free market system we have that allows you to go to CO to get a better price.

The inverse of the system we have now would be akin to Authoritarian Socialism, in which case, even the idea of you going to pick out the car you want, in the color you want, with the luxuries you want, would not really be a thing.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top