[Robert.Mauro]

That's great to know that the vehicle is already compliant with 3rd row safety requirements.

When Subaru implemented the SGP in 2017 it was made to handle all crash test until 2020 or 2025 I believe

At least 2025. If there aren't big changes for another 8-10 years, it's good for longer than that. And of course, every Subaru model will already be on a new generation before 2025, meaning they can have the new generations already beating the 2034 requirements (or whatever the date is).

 

[Jim_in_PA]

No, that's not the problem or reason. The test criteria is released many years in advance. Some manufacturers plan ahead to meet or beat the tests, some don't and hope, some don't do anything (Ford Explo is consistently rated at about the same place).

Yes, it's true that there are a few years notice, but my point was that the current JGC platform was determined in 2008-2009 with Daimler. That likely pre-dates the small overlap. The vehicle does better in the earlier tests, however.

That said...I'm still buying an Ascent. Real soon now.

 

[Robert.Mauro]

It'll be interesting to see how things go.

 

[xydadx3]

I think it’s time to bring this topic back up!

Jeep announced the Jeep Grand Cherokee L

finally a real competitor! (Not for me; they priced it out of my range, but it looks like it has potential to be a very good vehicle)

 

[packout]

I think it’s time to bring this topic back up!

Jeep announced the Jeep Grand Cherokee L

finally a real competitor! (Not for me; they priced it out of my range, but it looks like it has potential to be a very good vehicle)

only if they do it well which given that it is a Jeep and the new owners I doubt. They did get it correct in terms of the market which is why the Ascent is so popular. I bet all the features that would compete with the Ascent would be an add on. In addition I doubt they would be competitive with Subaru's safety features and ratings. They say it will come in at the low end of $40,000 which I suspect is fairly stripped given Jeeps history of pricing and higher retail points. I am happy for the competition, as it will up everyone's game.

 

[mtmra70]

Looks nice. The rear photos don't make it seem very large.

16way power seats? How the heck do you get there?

-forward/back
-front thigh up/down
-rear bum up/down
-recline back/forward

Thats 8-way, what am I missing....

 

[packout]

Looks nice. The rear photos don't make it seem very large.

16way power seats? How the heck do you get there?

-forward/back
-front thigh up/down
-rear bum up/down
-recline back/forward

Thats 8-way, what am I missing....

they even have 18 way power seats (see at bottom)

Lap of Luxury: 12-, 14- and 16-Way Power

automatic-content-migration

Beyond 10-way seats, carmakers have to get a bit creative, so it’s hard to group the controls together. The Cadillac STS offers as conventional a 12-way adjustment as you’re likely to find, with four-way lumbar and eight-way cushion/seatback movements. Its larger sibling, the Cadillac DTS, adds a back massager.


The Infiniti G37 upgrades to adjustable cushion and seatback bolsters, a real bonus for sporty drivers. There’s also a seat cushion extender that adds thigh support in front of the seat, for a total adjustment count of 16.


The Jaguar XK, meanwhile, goes without any seat-cushion bolster adjustments (the seatback bolsters are still adjustable) but adds four-way power lumbar and a power cushion extender. That gives its 16-way seats a leg up (excuse the pun) on Infiniti, whose cushion extender is manual. We should also note that the XK’s controls are on the door, a much more accessible location than alongside the seats. More cars ought to do this.


If a dozen-plus ways to pamper yourself isn’t enough, well, you obviously have deep pockets (and if you ever throw a party, you ought to invite us), because you’re clearly into …

----------------------------

Sybaritic seatwork knows no limits. We’re not sure whether a seat actually needs a power cushion extender and power-elevating head restraints, but the Lexus LS 600h offers both — and it also powers the position of your seat belt in the B-pillar, up and down. If you count the seat belt, that’s 18 awe-inspiring ways to settle into your car.


Not enough? The Audi A8 L has all that plus a backrest that can adjust for lower and upper angles, basically adjusting its concavity against your spine. The head restraints have their own bolsters, too, which can be extended to provide lateral cushioning for your noggin. Total adjustment count? 22. Think about it: That’s more adjustments than your neighbor’s Toyota Camry has for its driver’s seat, passenger seat and steering wheel — combined. Be sure to tell him that at the next block party.


And we could go on. By the time we shot the luxury cars, Mercedes and BMW officials had packed up for the day, and most of their cars were locked up. The same was true of exotic brands like Maybach and Rolls-Royce. It’s entirely possible one of them has more controls lurking, though we’re not entirely sure what those controls would do. (Behold, power shoulder-pad extensions! Comfort for all body parts!)


Back to the original question: Is there a point at which you have too many buttons? When we started out, we thought so. But umpteen cars later, those cushion extenders and headrest retractors don’t seem so bad. We may need more time in that Audi to investigate.

audi seat adjustments

 

[mtmra70]

Are you a real person packout? Or just a bot that Google's and posts the first result? Lol

 

[packout]

Are you a real person packout? Or just a bot that Google's and posts the first result? Lol

I enjoy learning so when I am intrigued with a question that I have or someone else poses I quickly look it up. And far from the first result. When appropriate I go for the original documentation if it is available. true for our Nation's founding documents as well as supreme court rulings. I actually read the Justices and other appeals court writings not just the interpretation of others. I review many perspectives and technical articles on a wide variety of subjects. My wife works with basic breast cancer research so I often go to the computer to read enough so I understand what the heck she is talking about. I have read quite a bit about the standard operating procedures for viral testing which helped me understand the major flaws in the current testing for covid. My son has his own interests which I try and keep up with and requires my own research so we can share topics of interest.

I know about many resources so when Robert is looking for a auto part I pull out my national auto parts resource and look it up and pass it on.

In terms of this forum, it is my way of giving back for so much it has provided me as a resource . I did pretty well negotiating when I bought my Ascent but now I know so much more on how to improve my negotiating technique. When there is someone in front of me (face to face or virtual) who knows more on a subject, I listen and try to take it in.

Duck Duck Go is my preferred starting point in basic searches.

 

[rlb81]

IMO the only place the current JGC really excels is with the 4x4 system and the Hemi drivetrain giving you the 7500lb tow rating, but as others have said it's at the expense of safety. I don't buy the argument of diminished value of the poor safety ratings because it was an old design subject to modern tests. That doesn't make the front overlap results any more palatable to me, just highlights that there are much better options out there in terms of safety.

Hopefully Jeep can address the safety issues and still provide a 7500lb tow rating, that may push the competition to go past the 5000lb plateau that the other offerings are stuck on.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I will make it clear that I'm a Grand Cherokee fan and in full disclosure, also help moderate the Jeep focused forum that's a sister to this one. The next generation of JGC that's now become revealed has been a long time....too long...coming. It's a complete platform redesign and other than (initially) the same engines and transmissions as well as some other drive train components, is "all new", just like has been happening with Subaru and the Global Platform across the line. WL-75 (the three row) JGC that was just officially revealed is going to be a hot seller in a hot market. JGC is already one of the highest selling midsize SUVs on the planet and has been for a long time. WL-75 has a whole new factory dedicated to it at the launch right next door to the (Jefferson North as a historical name) factory that has been spitting out nearly 800 current generation JGCs and about 200 Durangos...per day. That factory will continue to produce the "WK2" JGC for a few months along with the Durango until WL-74 goes into production mid-year. My understanding is that the current Durango will still come off that line, but the plan is for Durango to go in a completely different direction for next-gen, including possibly back to body-on-frame. When that happens, the entire operation will be JGC for even more units per month. And historically, every single one that's produced is already sold, either to an end customer or for a dealer order...they don't force ship them out and don't need to. That's how popular the vehicle is.

You can pretty much bet that most if not all of the safety concerns have been addressed. Remember, the current platform (derived from Merc's ML-350) came online for production in 2010 for MY11 and was developed well in advance of that start of production. That's a very long time in vehicle design years and many of the evolving safety things just couldn't be addressed without a physical platform change. That's reality, buy it or not. That same reality is that Jeep is very late with that change. They screwed up big-time, IMHO. It was originally supposed to move to next0gen in MY17 and then that moved to MY19. They missed it there, too. MY20 was then expected to be a short model year with the new 2-row and 3-row next generations coming on as a MY21. Enter...pandemic. While they are making the initial release of Grand Cherokee L as a MY21 for convenience, it's really a MY22 vehicle which the 2-row will be introduced as in a few months. That's a long delay from original intent. They now have to meet even higher expectations because there are more players in the 3-row area for sure than there were only a few years ago.

The tow rating remains unchanged from current...7200 lbs/720 lbs tongue for 4x4 and the V8. I believe the limit for the V6 4x4 also remains at 6200/620. Tongue weights above 350-400 lbs require WDH. Keep in mind that the vehicle itself is heavier than the Ascent by quite a bit...JGC Summit 4x4 weights in at over 5300 lbs. But WL-75 has a substantially longer wheelbase than the current "WK2" platform and that should indeed help with towing performance around balance. That's not such a good thing for off road stuff...the two row is a better choice there because of the angles, etc.

I'm not going to be going out and buying Grand Cherokee L. When I wanted to move to a 3-row two years ago (for the space, not the seats), there wasn't a Jeep option and I had been hankering for Ascent since it was just a gleam in Subaru's eye. I'm extremely happy with my Ascent and it's staying in my driveway. I'm committed to Subaru. But don't underestimate the impact that Jeep's WL-75 can and likely will make on the 3 row marketplace. JGC is a huge seller volume wise already and that's likely going to carry over as the three row becomes available.

 

[Titanrx8]

I will make it clear that I'm a Grand Cherokee fan and in full disclosure, also help moderate the Jeep focused forum that's a sister to this one. The next generation of JGC that's now become revealed has been a long time....too long...coming. It's a complete platform redesign and other than (initially) the same engines and transmissions as well as some other drive train components, is "all new", just like has been happening with Subaru and the Global Platform across the line. WL-75 (the three row) JGC that was just officially revealed is going to be a hot seller in a hot market. JGC is already one of the highest selling midsize SUVs on the planet and has been for a long time. WL-75 has a whole new factory dedicated to it at the launch right next door to the (Jefferson North as a historical name) factory that has been spitting out nearly 800 current generation JGCs and about 200 Durangos...per day. That factory will continue to produce the "WK2" JGC for a few months along with the Durango until WL-74 goes into production mid-year. My understanding is that the current Durango will still come off that line, but the plan is for Durango to go in a completely different direction for next-gen, including possibly back to body-on-frame. When that happens, the entire operation will be JGC for even more units per month. And historically, every single one that's produced is already sold, either to an end customer or for a dealer order...they don't force ship them out and don't need to. That's how popular the vehicle is.

You can pretty much bet that most if not all of the safety concerns have been addressed. Remember, the current platform (derived from Merc's ML-350) came online for production in 2010 for MY11 and was developed well in advance of that start of production. That's a very long time in vehicle design years and many of the evolving safety things just couldn't be addressed without a physical platform change. That's reality, buy it or not. That same reality is that Jeep is very late with that change. They screwed up big-time, IMHO. It was originally supposed to move to next0gen in MY17 and then that moved to MY19. They missed it there, too. MY20 was then expected to be a short model year with the new 2-row and 3-row next generations coming on as a MY21. Enter...pandemic. While they are making the initial release of Grand Cherokee L as a MY21 for convenience, it's really a MY22 vehicle which the 2-row will be introduced as in a few months. That's a long delay from original intent. They now have to meet even higher expectations because there are more players in the 3-row area for sure than there were only a few years ago.

The tow rating remains unchanged from current...7200 lbs/720 lbs tongue for 4x4 and the V8. I believe the limit for the V6 4x4 also remains at 6200/620. Tongue weights above 350-400 lbs require WDH. Keep in mind that the vehicle itself is heavier than the Ascent by quite a bit...JGC Summit 4x4 weights in at over 5300 lbs. But WL-75 has a substantially longer wheelbase than the current "WK2" platform and that should indeed help with towing performance around balance. That's not such a good thing for off road stuff...the two row is a better choice there because of the angles, etc.

I'm not going to be going out and buying Grand Cherokee L. When I wanted to move to a 3-row two years ago (for the space, not the seats), there wasn't a Jeep option and I had been hankering for Ascent since it was just a gleam in Subaru's eye. I'm extremely happy with my Ascent and it's staying in my driveway. I'm committed to Subaru. But don't underestimate the impact that Jeep's WL-75 can and likely will make on the 3 row marketplace. JGC is a huge seller volume wise already and that's likely going to carry over as the three row becomes available.

Nice write-up.

Back when I was a car mechanic, I loved Chrysler products. They were easy to work on and typically spent lots of time in the shop (1960's and 70's products).I never owned one although I put a couple of 426 Hemis into other makes.

Fast forward to 1996 and we leased a Grand Cherokee. Total piece of junk other than the drive train (which was virtually identical to the pre-Chrysler Jeep Wagoneer drive train).

The JGC was my wife's daily driver. It was garaged at home and at her office. I mention this because it's relevant to the ridiculous problems the car experienced. A couple of months in, I noticed the hood and roof were rusting. The dealer insisted we did something to cause it. Then I used a Jeep forum to make contact with other JGC owners experiencing the same and collected photos which I submitted to the dealer and Chrysler HQ. At about 1 year they agreed to strip the paint, neutralize the rust and repaint it.

Soon after the repaint, my wife goes to take the car out of the garage and found the entire headliner laying across the seats. Same battles ensued and they replaced the headliner.

Soon after that, just driving on the interstate we heard a clunk inside the car and took the next exit to investigate. We found the rear passenger armrest on the floor and the interior panel was in shreds like it was disintegrating. No one was back there, in fact no one had ever been back there. Back to the dealer and same battles. Over the next year, the same thing happened to each of the other doors.

There were numerous other issues in the electronics and brakes that required trips to the dealer. Never had a drivetrain issue but the other problems were just absurd. I was never so happy that it was leased as the day we dropped that off at the Jeep dealer and took a cab over to pick up our new Lexus.

Won't ever own a Chrysler product.

 

[hokiefyd]

Chryslers have been hit-and-miss for my family, but the Jeeps have been pretty good. We had a '96 ZJ Laredo with the factory Up Country suspension package and it was a real mule. It had the 318 V-8 and we towed a 6500-ish pound travel trailer all around with that Jeep. And we did three Jeep Jamborees in it. It had about 150k miles when it left the family, still running well.

On the flip side, my folks had an '05 Hemi WK that they had to force Jeep to buy back due to continual real axle issues. They went through like SEVEN rear axles on that Jeep -- and no dealer could figure out what was going on. They forced Jeep to buy it back and then bought the '05 MDX that my family has today. They had TJ Rubicon and a JK Rubicon also with which they did a LOT of off-roading with RV Jeep clubs.

Chrysler treated us poorly in the late 2000s on a 2007 Town & Country we bought new. We sold that van to CarMax and bought my folks' MDX from them. Although I was really sore with Chrysler for how they treated us, I know Chrysler corporate has been through about five different mergers and take-overs since then, so I know the Chrysler of 10 years ago is not the Chrysler of today (at least I hope not).

They have some really compelling vehicles. I've always like the Grand Cherokee line because it was the least ostentatious of Chrysler's SUV lineup (think Nitro, Durango, etc.). Most Grands today are like the Orvis edition Grands from many years ago -- classy and understated (and pretty expensive, too!). I suspect the buyers of a 3-row Grand Cherokee are likely not in the same financial demographic of most Ascent buyers (there probably won't be a lot of price overlap), but I'm sure it'll be a really nice vehicle.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

Titan, those early JGCs were indeed "not worthy". WK (MY05-MY10), was ok and "WK2" (MY11-MY21) were very different and also Unibody. Not totally problem free, like any vehicle, especially early production MY14 after the refresh, but not pieces of junk like the earlier generations. "WK2", as I mentioned has been built on the same platform as Mercedes ML-350 and that platform still lives in the GL series, too. WL-75 and WL-74 are a new platform that comes from the Stelvio and Giulia but scaled for the midsize SUV.

hokiefyd, The financial demographic between Ascent and JGC-L will have "some" overlap, but JGC is definitely a more expensive vehicle ranging from the low-40s up to about 60, depending on trim level and packages, etc. My MY19 Ascent Touring's list price was almost $10K less than my MY12 JGC Overland Summit and the OTD price was about $5 less.

 

[hokiefyd]

If I'm not mistaken, the Grand Cherokee (starting with ZJ) has always been unibody. I didn't know if you were saying WK2 was different because it moved to a unibody platform or not, but I think the Grand has always been unibody (much like the XJ Cherokee).

 

[Scoobydoo]

They have some really compelling vehicles. I've always like the Grand Cherokee line because it was the least ostentatious of Chrysler's SUV lineup (think Nitro, Durango, etc.). Most Grands today are like the Orvis edition Grands from many years ago -- classy and understated (and pretty expensive, too!). I suspect the buyers of a 3-row Grand Cherokee are likely not in the same financial demographic of most Ascent buyers (there probably won't be a lot of price overlap), but I'm sure it'll be a really nice vehicle.

hokiefyd, The financial demographic between Ascent and JGC-L will have "some" overlap, but JGC is definitely a more expensive vehicle ranging from the low-40s up to about 60, depending on trim level and packages, etc. My MY19 Ascent Touring's list price was almost $10K less than my MY12 JGC Overland Summit and the OTD price was about $5 less.

From a cost standpoint, I'd find it surprising if these are remotely in the same range - similarly built. I do like the V8 option in the JGC, though and I think if they do a Trackhawk version, that'll certainly interest some.

I think this car may find itself in a similar predicament as something like the GV80 (still to be seen). While they offer some premium/upscale materials, options, and features they start to quickly encroach on X5/GLE/Q7 pricing which may make them less appealing.

All that said, I think it looks really good in pictures and look forward to seeing it in person.

 

[mtmra70]

Will be curious to see how much options add to the cost. I get the baseline pricing for the variants, but even the Ascent stops right around $50k for decked out Touring. I have a feeling it will be easy to add $15k-20k to a given Jeep.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

From a cost standpoint, I'd find it surprising if these are remotely in the same range - similarly built. I do like the V8 option in the JGC, though and I think if they do a Trackhawk version, that'll certainly interest some.

I think this car may find itself in a similar predicament as something like the GV80 (still to be seen). While they offer some premium/upscale materials, options, and features they start to quickly encroach on X5/GLE/Q7 pricing which may make them less appealing.

All that said, I think it looks really good in pictures and look forward to seeing it in person.

Will be curious to see how much options add to the cost. I get the baseline pricing for the variants, but even the Ascent stops right around $50k for decked out Touring. I have a feeling it will be easy to add $15k-20k to a given Jeep.

JGC pricing already exceeds $60K at the top end and that's not changing with WL. As I noted, there's some overlap with Ascent at the lower end of JGC, but it's definitely a step up on price range. I don't believe that the price is going to curtail sales at all considering it's been selling like hotcakes for many years now with similar pricing. The MSRP of the MY12 I owned was about $53K and that was over 9 years ago. The equivalent is now about $60K. But Ascent is already at the top of many Subaru buyer's range so while there will be some cross-shopping, you would think it wouldn't be huge. But then again, look at what folks have been paying for Kias that compete with Ascent...

Scooby, Trackhawk is coming for WL, but delayed until MY23. That thing is going to be a beast, even more than the "WK2" based version which kicks major hiney already. The suspension will likely be another step up from current and it will probably weigh a little less. 700 HP on the top end version and a little lighter weight will be, ummm....rocket-ship like I'm thinking.

 

[mtmra70]

Yea, I don't see the pricing slowing the sales. Freaking Yukons are going for six figures!!!

 

[Titanrx8]

WL-75 and WL-74 are a new platform that comes from the Stelvio and Giulia but scaled for the midsize SUV.

This is not confidence inspiring.

Chrysler was already the most unreliable brand of US manufacturers. Joining with Fiat didn't elevate their quality whatsoever.

In my personal experience as a mechanic and owner, the only personal vehicle that I owned that was worse quality than the Jeep Grand Cherokee was my Fiat 124 Coupe. The Fiat, when it was running properly, which was rare, was one of the most comfortable, best handling sports coupes of its time (even better than the legendary BMW 2002 which I also owned). But, it spent more time up on jacks in my shop than it ever spent on the road. Ordering parts and receiving parts all the way from Italy was time consuming.

I'm really not so sure about the current Jeeps either. My neighbor had the 2 door version of whatever the current Wrangler is and it went on fire in his garage and almost burned down the house. The insurance replaced it with another identical model. This one gets parked far from the house.

I'm happy that so many people like their Jeeps but wonder why anyone buys them if they aren't hardcore off-road enthusiasts.