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I'm still waiting on the Ascent engineers data to compare...cant release incomplete findings. 馃榿
They're not the ones using the vehicle contrary to what the engineers who designed it said to. They've got nothing to prove. ;) :ROFLMAO:
 

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Robert you're never going to convince some people to not use a WDH. Hopefully when they have damaged their SUV they can sue the RV dealer and maybe the people in this forum working so hard to convince them to go against the owners manual. I for one appreciate your passion for the topic. Any person or dealer telling someone to blatantly disregard the owners manual is definitely putting themself at risk for a lawsuit. It would not surprise me to find out that Can-Am RV makes you sign a waiver that they are not responsible for damage caused by towing. It's probably in the fine print on the sales receipt.
 

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You need only do a quick search of Can-Am RV towing to get your answer.
Ok. I submitted several test parameters for Google against the CanAm site. The only term with positive hits is "road test". Again, I will acknowledged that road test are important, however, they are not the only thing.

I have built racing cars and bikes long before computers were able to do simulations and analysis. It was called trial and error. Sometimes we blew things up, sometimes we crashed when our design or build quality didn't make the grade. Every professional race team does track testing (trial & error) AFTER computer simulation.

If I brought my car to CanAm to have a custom hitch set up built, I'd let them test drive it over their course, but I wouldn't/couldn't let them do it a million times at increasing speeds like I could do with a simulation.

Here are the search results:
Screenshot_20200626-212901_Chrome.jpg Screenshot_20200626-212937_Chrome.jpg Screenshot_20200626-213001_Chrome.jpg Screenshot_20200626-213050_Chrome.jpg Screenshot_20200626-213155_Chrome.jpg
 

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Ok. I submitted several test parameters for Google against the CanAm site. The only term with positive hits is "road test". Again, I will acknowledged that road test are important, however, they are not the only thing.

I have built racing cars and bikes long before computers were able to do simulations and analysis. It was called trial and error. Sometimes we blew things up, sometimes we crashed when our design or build quality didn't make the grade. Every professional race team does track testing (trial & error) AFTER computer simulation.

If I brought my car to CanAm to have a custom hitch set up built, I'd let them test drive it over their course, but I wouldn't/couldn't let them do it a million times at increasing speeds like I could do with a simulation.

Here are the search results:
View attachment 4364 View attachment 4365 View attachment 4366 View attachment 4367 View attachment 4368
So now we are comparing building a motorsports car/bike from the ground up to a tow hitch.
 

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Robert you're never going to convince some people to not use a WDH. Hopefully when they have damaged their SUV they can sue the RV dealer and maybe the people in this forum working so hard to convince them to go against the owners manual. I for one appreciate your passion for the topic. Any person or dealer telling someone to blatantly disregard the owners manual is definitely putting themself at risk for a lawsuit. It would not surprise me to find out that Can-Am RV makes you sign a waiver that they are not responsible for damage caused by towing. It's probably in the fine print on the sales receipt.
I've only asked for the data to prove the Ascent failed with a WDH that Robert seems to believe exists. Barring that I am more apt to believe the towing experts, over a CYA in an owners manual. If you actually read that book, we disregard plenty of other things in there as well, city driving is considered severe duty who uses that OCI, I don't. No Rain-X on the windshield, tried that for a few weeks, guess you who couldn't see in the rain along with the eyesight cameras, this guy. So we use Rain-X. My favorite subject for safety, especially in this vehicle with Eyesight and all the other nannies would be suspension and ECU tuning. Who knows how much messing with those things throws off Safety system calibrations and could lead to disastrous consequences. Life is full of what-ifs. Noone here is suggesting throwing on some 1k lb spring bars and towing a park model across a mountain range. Just adding a substantial hitch upgrade in order to get a trailer that is within the parameters of the Ascents ratings to tow straight and safely.

And I will add, it is one thing to quote the manual and speak your piece and very much another to troll every post on the subject to the point people aren't feeling welcome for having experience and an opinion on the subject.
 

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I've only asked for the data to prove the Ascent failed with a WDH that Robert seems to believe exists. Barring that I am more apt to believe the towing experts, over a CYA in an owners manual.
I believe the racing comparison was pointing out that along with computer simulation, testing and trial and error are still necessary. I don鈥檛 think many of us want to risk our Ascent being the guinea pig for some trial and error data.
From a legal standpoint I鈥檇 stick with the owners manual on this. There鈥檚 also simply no need for the wdh when properly towing in the Ascents limits anyway.
 

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I believe the racing comparison was pointing out that along with computer simulation, testing and trial and error are still necessary. I don鈥檛 think many of us want to risk our Ascent being the guinea pig for some trial and error data.
From a legal standpoint I鈥檇 stick with the owners manual on this. There鈥檚 also simply no need for the wdh when properly towing in the Ascents limits anyway.
Why is that standard applied here and not for Cobb or ADF or Primitive...I'm all for having all the data possible, but every company that makes parts for Subarus uses development development as well as their proprietary experience in bringing their products to market. I doubt if Anderson puts a million miles on every vehicle they make products for to ensure the safety and stability programs as well as architecture are undamaged by their lift kits. So why should that standard be applied here.
 

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I've only asked for the data to prove the Ascent failed with a WDH that Robert seems to believe exists.
I doubt you will ever see developmental test date from a vehicle manufacturer and I'm personally content with Subaru's specification that WDH and other related devices are not to be used with the Ascent, given it has potential warranty implications. If someone isn't comfortable towing a trailer that's within the Ascent's stated parameters of 500 lbs tongue weight/5000 lbs load without a WDH, then perhaps they should consider a different tow vehicle or a different load. At the same time, I'll certainly acknowledge that the vendor noted may very well have the expertise and resources to find a way to accommodate the devices on a given vehicle, but the risk is ultimately going to be on the vehicle owner if something fails, not the vehicle manufacturer.
 

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Why is that standard applied here and not for Cobb or ADF or Primitive...
You're not wrong here. Certain other topics have been sternly warned against but I don't believe either of these are included. As with any modifications you have to weigh the risks and benefits.
Cobb has been on this forum and does have test data from Ascent(s?), but that data doesn't prove long term reliability.
Lift kits also change the dynamics of the vehicle, so they're to be used at the owners risk.
Can-Am has a good reputation just as Cobb does.
Worst case scenario with a tune is engine failure not being covered by warranty. Nobody dies.
Worst case scenario with a wdh installation is unibody failure. Everybody dies.
Yes my examples are potentially exaggerated just to illustrate the point. Risks of the former < risks of the latter.
Personally, I'd love to get a tune and lift but my warranty is more important to me. I also like towing, safely. I'm not sure why everyone is in disagreement since theres no need or for a wdh. You can't simply increase the towing limits of the Ascent with one. If a dealer insisted on selling/installing equipment I didn't need or want, they would lose my business quickly.
 

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Well, in COBB's case, I know the programmed safety margin that LuK originally designed into the CVT code (COBB hasn't exceeded it), and, I've indeed warned people, many times, against exceeding what COBB did if they go for a protune, or towing on the 93 tune.

The difference, Ruben, is that NO ONE disputed it, much less repeatedly. 馃槈
 

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I've never denied it COULD cause damage, merely that it is guaranteed to especially given the experiences I presented. Worst case scenarios when you mess with ECM tuning is certainly not just a blown engine, that's like saying the worst thing that happens when your car shuts off is it wont move, remember those deaths from the GM ignition failures...anyone can pluck doomsday scenarios for any failure no matter how likely or unlikely.

If we are going to apply a logic of reasoning then it should be consistent. The owner's manual states only the supplied towing equipment is to be used. So anything not supplied by Subaru would be grounds to deny any warranty to do with the hitch.
 

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This entire discussion is moot. There is no need for a WDH on the Ascent to tow safely with a properly matched and loaded trailer, so what's the point of discussing whether it's safe to use one? This is like discussing whether it's safe to install dual rear tires on an Ascent for better load capabilities. There's simply no need for it to begin with if you choose a properly sized trailer and load it correctly.

I don't see any Ascent owners who are properly towing travel trailers or other trailers complaining about unsafe situations. I haven't towed a travel trailer yet, but I regularly tow two boat trailers, a large utility trailer, and a backhoe, all within the Ascent's limits, and all without a WDH. No issues whatsoever, the Ascent has been a superb tow vehicle for me. The vast majority of people here are also reporting excellent results towing trailers of all suitable types and sizes with the Ascent. So why should anyone here want or require a WDH? It's an unnecessary piece of useless aftermarket equipment in this case. The Ascent has been properly designed as an excellent tow vehicle for its class without the need for one, a fact we should all be grateful for.

A WDH, in my opinion, is a mechanical crutch specifically designed to attempt to extend towing capabilities beyond a vehicle's inherent safe towing capabilities. No well-designed tow vehicle should need to use one when correctly matched to a properly loaded trailer. If a tow vehicle requires a WDH for a suitable, matched, properly loaded trailer, then, unlike the Ascent, it wasn't well designed in the first place because it requires external third-party components to safely tow a trailer and cannot perform this inherently. Sadly, this is the case with some vehicles. This fact, and the fact that people all too often choose trailers without adequate safety margins and/or improperly load them, make WDH's very popular to compensate for these unsafe practices. RV dealers and businesses like Can-Am love and live by them because WDH's significantly improve their sales potentials by greatly extending the range of what they can recommend and sell. It's their primary go-to/catch-all solution. It allows them to recommend trailers that would normally be beyond the inherent safe limits of their customer's tow vehicles and/or for customers who do not know enough or care enough to load trailers properly. Is this a good thing? You decide. But don't even try to criticize or debate WDH's with many of these RV businesses. In their mind, you'll be endangering a major portion of their sales and you'll be a heretic in their eyes. This I've learned firsthand. WDH's are their bread and butter and they'll defend and recommended them passionately to the end. This, however, doesn't mean they're right for you.

Again, the primary use of a WDH is often to attempt to compensate for potentially unsafe towing situations as when uninformed or uncaring people use a trailer unsuited to their tow vehicle or improperly load a trailer. Anyone relying on a WDH for towing may be pushing the safety limits of their tow vehicle beyond what it can accomplish alone. If anyone is really concerned about towing safety, then relying on a WDH to resolve a situation where a trailer is improperly inherently matched to a tow vehicle or improperly loaded is not a good solution. Rather, it's a hack to compensate for an otherwise unsafe situation. It's far better and safer never to need one in the first place by simply selecting the proper trailer for the tow vehicle and loading it correctly. That's the safest scenario, certainly better than adding some aftermarket crutch device to attempt to compensate for potentially unsafe loads.

Additionally, if you're adding a WDH to a vehicle/trailer combo that does not require one at all, you're not improving safety, you're just wasting your money and unnecessarily complicating your setup. In the case of the Ascent, you also may be potentially severely damaging your frame. Who wants to risk that over an unnecessary device?

The Ascent is well engineered and well proven to be able to safely tow properly matched and loaded trailers without a WDH. That's a fact. Any discussion on using or requiring a WDH is simply moot in these circumstances. If you're in a situation where you require a WDH with the Ascent to tow a trailer because you can't safely stay within its towing specifications, then either choose another trailer or find a tow vehicle suitable to the trailer you wish to tow because you're beyond the safe inherent tow limits of the Ascent. If you stay within the limits, no WDH is required or should ever be used, and no further consideration is necessary.
 

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@pro10is stated it much better than I did. There's one thing though... can we have a pic of that backhoe being towed? That sounds awesome!

... I regularly tow two boat trailers, a large utility trailer, and a backhoe, all within the Ascent's limits, and all without a WDH. No issues whatsoever, the Ascent has been a superb tow vehicle for me...
 

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There's one thing though... can we have a pic of that backhoe being towed?
I could tow my BX-22 Kubota TLB with my Ascent...if I had a trailer that could fit it and handle the weight. My utility trailer is too short and not rated for 3000 lbs.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
This entire discussion is moot. There is no need for a WDH on the Ascent to tow safely with a properly matched and loaded trailer, so what's the point of discussing whether it's safe to use one? This is like discussing whether it's safe to install dual rear tires on an Ascent for better load capabilities. There's simply no need for it to begin with if you choose a properly sized trailer and load it correctly.

I don't see any Ascent owners who are properly towing travel trailers or other trailers complaining about unsafe situations. I haven't towed a travel trailer yet, but I regularly tow two boat trailers, a large utility trailer, and a backhoe, all within the Ascent's limits, and all without a WDH. No issues whatsoever, the Ascent has been a superb tow vehicle for me. The vast majority of people here are also reporting excellent results towing trailers of all suitable types and sizes with the Ascent. So why should anyone here want or require a WDH? It's an unnecessary piece of useless aftermarket equipment in this case. The Ascent has been properly designed as an excellent tow vehicle for its class without the need for one, a fact we should all be grateful for.

A WDH, in my opinion, is a mechanical crutch specifically designed to attempt to extend towing capabilities beyond a vehicle's inherent safe towing capabilities. No well-designed tow vehicle should need to use one when correctly matched to a properly loaded trailer. If a tow vehicle requires a WDH for a suitable, matched, properly loaded trailer, then, unlike the Ascent, it wasn't well designed in the first place because it requires external third-party components to safely tow a trailer and cannot perform this inherently. Sadly, this is the case with some vehicles. This fact, and the fact that people all too often choose trailers without adequate safety margins and/or improperly load them, make WDH's very popular to compensate for these unsafe practices. RV dealers and businesses like Can-Am love and live by them because WDH's significantly improve their sales potentials by greatly extending the range of what they can recommend and sell. It's their primary go-to/catch-all solution. It allows them to recommend trailers that would normally be beyond the inherent safe limits of their customer's tow vehicles and/or for customers who do not know enough or care enough to load trailers properly. Is this a good thing? You decide. But don't even try to criticize or debate WDH's with many of these RV businesses. In their mind, you'll be endangering a major portion of their sales and you'll be a heretic in their eyes. This I've learned firsthand. WDH's are their bread and butter and they'll defend and recommended them passionately to the end. This, however, doesn't mean they're right for you.

Again, the primary use of a WDH is often to attempt to compensate for potentially unsafe towing situations as when uninformed or uncaring people use a trailer unsuited to their tow vehicle or improperly load a trailer. Anyone relying on a WDH for towing may be pushing the safety limits of their tow vehicle beyond what it can accomplish alone. If anyone is really concerned about towing safety, then relying on a WDH to resolve a situation where a trailer is improperly inherently matched to a tow vehicle or improperly loaded is not a good solution. Rather, it's a hack to compensate for an otherwise unsafe situation. It's far better and safer never to need one in the first place by simply selecting the proper trailer for the tow vehicle and loading it correctly. That's the safest scenario, certainly better than adding some aftermarket crutch device to attempt to compensate for potentially unsafe loads.

Additionally, if you're adding a WDH to a vehicle/trailer combo that does not require one at all, you're not improving safety, you're just wasting your money and unnecessarily complicating your setup. In the case of the Ascent, you also may be potentially severely damaging your frame. Who wants to risk that over an unnecessary device?

The Ascent is well engineered and well proven to be able to safely tow properly matched and loaded trailers without a WDH. That's a fact. Any discussion on using or requiring a WDH is simply moot in these circumstances. If you're in a situation where you require a WDH with the Ascent to tow a trailer because you can't safely stay within its towing specifications, then either choose another trailer or find a tow vehicle suitable to the trailer you wish to tow because you're beyond the safe inherent tow limits of the Ascent. If you stay within the limits, no WDH is required or should ever be used, and no further consideration is necessary.
From the research I've been doing WDHs do have a purpose beyond compensating for incorrectly balanced trailers. From what I understand they reduce or eliminate (when talking about the Hensley Arrow) trailer sway. What I'm reading is that trailer sway is also created by emergency maneuvers, cross winds and bow waves from passing semis. None of these inputs have anything to do with trailer balance (but they would be acerbated by an improperly balanced trailer). The mere fact that the Ascent has a Trailer Sway Assist system seems to recognize that trailer sway is a problem when towing.

What I'm hearing in many of these posts is a lot of people minimizing the challenges of trailer sway and saying that all you need is an Ascent, an OEM hitch and a properly balanced trailer. Then all of a sudden you won't ever have to deal with trailer sway. - Poof! Problem solved.

What is being implied is that the only people that use WDHs are idiots that don't know how to balance their trailers. That really isn't jiving with everything I've been reading.

Of course, I'm very new to this.
 

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I could tow my BX-22 Kubota TLB with my Ascent...if I had a trailer that could fit it and handle the weight.
I know this is off topic...I have a BX-23 TLB - same tractor different year. Be careful you don鈥檛 get too addicted like me and have to get a bigger one. I also have a Kioti DK45 TLB.

Back to the topic now....
 

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I believe what people are saying is that if you have the right-sized trailer for the Ascent, then you have no reason for even considering a WDH. In my opinion, any trailer being considered for towing with the Ascent shouldn't be one that you have to reconfigure each and every time you hitch it to your tow vehicle. I personally wouldn't want to have to relocate cargo, to include my propane tank(s), to the rear of the trailer to ensure the tongue weight was within specs. For me, that's too much work as I often am on the road with my camper for several weeks at a time, often moving every day or so. If I had to move my propane tank to the rear of the trailer every time I moved, and/or move stuff in cabinets in the forward part of the trailer to the rear, I'd either choose another trailer or get another, more capable tow vehicle. I do agree, however, that WDH's have their place in the greater scheme of things, but towing with the Ascent has its limitations, and a WDH is not going to be able to provide the help that it might provide some other vehicle preparing to tow something at the outer limits of its stock capabilities.
 

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I know this is off topic...I have a BX-23 TLB - same tractor different year. Be careful you don鈥檛 get too addicted like me and have to get a bigger one. I also have a Kioti DK45 TLB.

Back to the topic now....
B2650 here.

Maybe we need a Kubota thread..
 
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Just had a thought. You could mount a 5th wheel hitch on the roof rack...Oh rats the roof rails dont have a very high dynamic load rating...never mind.
 

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From the research I've been doing WDHs do have a purpose beyond compensating for incorrectly balanced trailers. From what I understand they reduce or eliminate (when talking about the Hensley Arrow) trailer sway. What I'm reading is that trailer sway is also created by emergency maneuvers, cross winds and bow waves from passing semis. None of these inputs have anything to do with trailer balance (but they would be acerbated by an improperly balanced trailer). The mere fact that the Ascent has a Trailer Sway Assist system seems to recognize that trailer sway is a problem when towing.

What I'm hearing in many of these posts is a lot of people minimizing the challenges of trailer sway and saying that all you need is an Ascent, an OEM hitch and a properly balanced trailer. Then all of a sudden you won't ever have to deal with trailer sway. - Poof! Problem solved.

What is being implied is that the only people that use WDHs are idiots that don't know how to balance their trailers. That really isn't jiving with everything I've been reading.

Of course, I'm very new to this.
Adding the weight of a WDH to your already tongue heavy setup is only going to put more weight on the rear axle and lift your front axle even more, it would be dangerous. Using a WDH should solve sway(Ascent systems excluded) but exacerbates too much weight on the rear axles. That's without even getting into frame stress issues.

It is a very cool trailer, but designed in an era when a truck would be towing it. There is no magic bullet that will make it safe to tow with the Ascent.
 
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