2019 Ascent T-boned - no airbag deployment
41 - 60 of 66 Posts
I think we all understand this, but at least what I am looking for is an investigation that determines if we can do better to reduce injuries for this angle of collision.
could the airbag and its deployment be designed such that in this type of accident it reduces the injuries instead of contributing to it?
Yep the threshold is 15mph.
Would be very interesting to see photos of the vehicle, i am in the insurance industry and hear this same statement many times, air bags are designed to go off on a very serious accident, if there is the possibility of the vehicle to keep moving after being hit, air bag deployment would be a very serious safety condition, driver would very easily lose control of the vehicle.
Most important, i am very happy there is no serious bodily harm from the accident, be thankful for that.
Most important, i am very happy there is no serious bodily harm from the accident, be thankful for that.
So the vehicle's air bag software considers the vehicle's post-collision driveability in the criteria for deployment? I'd like to see the logic tree and coding for that. Forty years in IT.
Joined
·
13,580 Posts
My understanding is that deploying an airbag during an angular impact can be devastating. Airbags are designed to mitigate parallel forces. I can't speak to what any particular manufacturer uses as thresholds, but, all new systems factor in directional momentum, speed, and use of seat belts to determine whether there should be an airbag (or airbags) deployment.
Also, sliding/corner impacts do not always generate the same type of instant impact forces necessary to trigger air bags.
I'll be interested to hear what they find.
Anyway, I think IIHS has a bunch of stuff on the topic, but I am still crazy busy through the weekend.
Also, sliding/corner impacts do not always generate the same type of instant impact forces necessary to trigger air bags.
I'll be interested to hear what they find.
Anyway, I think IIHS has a bunch of stuff on the topic, but I am still crazy busy through the weekend.
The airbag control module (ACM) wakes up by 5mph delta v (change in velocity) and deploys at no greater than 15mph delta v.
So if you are going 70 and rear end someome going 60, then no deployment since the delta v is only 10. If you hit a wall and you are going 16mph the airbags will deploy. It gets really complicated with the all forces and factors. But the computer makes the determination in a fraction of a second. The ACM/EDR will also record the 5 seconds prior to the event so all that data can be analyzed.
Joined
·
13,580 Posts
Do you have a reference indicating that's how Subaru's system works?
Nope. Subaru's EDR records in general up to 22 seconds of certain data (as much as 30 seconds for certain things). Other information of longer duration may be obtainable via the ECU from learning data.
Subaru's system is proprietary so I do not have personal experience with Subaru's system. However I do have experience with every other manufacturer and what I posted is true for those vehicles.
Joined
·
13,580 Posts
Thanks, I will see if (besides the recording durations I posted) there is some non-proprietary information I can dig up and share. Probably next week when I am less swamped with work and projects.
Once deployed, they deflate immediately, so Im not sure it would be problematic.
I was an EMT during the early days of air bags (driver side only). In a deployment accident, the driver would be so dazed by the air bag noise and impact that they were typically still groggy when we arrived. It would take one helluva driver to keep driving. I know the new ones are much "gentler" but not likely in a condition to keep driving.
I have an example that might show both pieces. Below is a link to a car accident I had in 2017 while driving my 2014 Subaru Forester XT. I was stopped at a light with my two very young boys in the back (taking them to school).
I waited for the light to change, then proceeded through the intersection. More than 3 seconds after my light turned green, I was hit in the front-left quarter panel by a Toyota hatchback that was probably going over 35. My airbags did NOT deploy (not even side-curtain) ... but as you can see at the end of the clip, as the Toyota rolls by ... the other driver's vehicle's airbags DID deploy.
Completely different impacts, completely different results.
I muted the video around the time of the impact because I am sure you didn't want to hear my two sons screaming and crying. (and my yelling too
)
Luckily, no one was seriously injured and I only had 4 weeks of PT for strained intercostal muscles ... which we think was caused by the seat belt's auto-retraction (left shoulder area). Car was totaled!
(Oh yeah, if you listen to what's on the radio right before the accident, you will hear a Geico commercial! Talk about foreshadowing, as the other driver had Geico. But, my dashcam video proved vital to the police on scene and my "negotiations" with GEICO! Everything turned out okay in the end)
2014 Forester XT - Side Impact - No Airbag Deployment
I waited for the light to change, then proceeded through the intersection. More than 3 seconds after my light turned green, I was hit in the front-left quarter panel by a Toyota hatchback that was probably going over 35. My airbags did NOT deploy (not even side-curtain) ... but as you can see at the end of the clip, as the Toyota rolls by ... the other driver's vehicle's airbags DID deploy.
Completely different impacts, completely different results.
I muted the video around the time of the impact because I am sure you didn't want to hear my two sons screaming and crying. (and my yelling too
)Luckily, no one was seriously injured and I only had 4 weeks of PT for strained intercostal muscles ... which we think was caused by the seat belt's auto-retraction (left shoulder area). Car was totaled!
(Oh yeah, if you listen to what's on the radio right before the accident, you will hear a Geico commercial! Talk about foreshadowing, as the other driver had Geico. But, my dashcam video proved vital to the police on scene and my "negotiations" with GEICO! Everything turned out okay in the end
)2014 Forester XT - Side Impact - No Airbag Deployment
Joined
·
3,825 Posts
@E-EC-ECU I had a similar accident, also in 2017 on New Year’s Eve, with my 3 kids in my Chevy Cruze.
I only made it about halfway across intersection when I saw a Honda Civic running their red light from my left side. I hit the brakes hard, sparing an impact on the drivers door or god forbid my kid’s back door! One of them found a seatbelt flaw in the back seat and got a black eye from the back of the passenger seat. He was leaning forward when I braked, but not enough to activate the belt lock. When the civic hit me it was enough for him to come in contact with the back of the passenger seat. None of my airbags deployed though my car was spun around about 90°. I didn’t talk to the civic driver out of fear I might hurt him and I knew I had dashcam footage. I did see his front airbags at least deployed. It was a front center collision (unknown speed) for him while I was a front corner collision (low speed) for me.
I was in an even more minor accident in 2016, in which fault was contested in court. That’s what motivated me to get a dashcam; it has paid off exponentially!
All I know is the logic circuits in the airbag system have to make a very quick decision based on a lot of parameters. This logic and airbag design will continue to improve as it has. It’s unlikely us consumers will ever hear the results of any investigation and how it ties into future airbag engineering.
I only made it about halfway across intersection when I saw a Honda Civic running their red light from my left side. I hit the brakes hard, sparing an impact on the drivers door or god forbid my kid’s back door! One of them found a seatbelt flaw in the back seat and got a black eye from the back of the passenger seat. He was leaning forward when I braked, but not enough to activate the belt lock. When the civic hit me it was enough for him to come in contact with the back of the passenger seat. None of my airbags deployed though my car was spun around about 90°. I didn’t talk to the civic driver out of fear I might hurt him and I knew I had dashcam footage. I did see his front airbags at least deployed. It was a front center collision (unknown speed) for him while I was a front corner collision (low speed) for me.
I was in an even more minor accident in 2016, in which fault was contested in court. That’s what motivated me to get a dashcam; it has paid off exponentially!
All I know is the logic circuits in the airbag system have to make a very quick decision based on a lot of parameters. This logic and airbag design will continue to improve as it has. It’s unlikely us consumers will ever hear the results of any investigation and how it ties into future airbag engineering.
I would be pretty mad if my front airbags deployed with a side impact. Sure, I might like side airbags, but I'm not sure if those deploy separately.
I was once rear ended by a drunk driver sitting at a stop light. Another time I would have been seriously pissed if the airbags went off. My neck already hurt from the rearward motion, I would have hated having an airbag in my face on top of it (I did not fly forward towards the wheel, so no need for it).
I was once rear ended by a drunk driver sitting at a stop light. Another time I would have been seriously pissed if the airbags went off. My neck already hurt from the rearward motion, I would have hated having an airbag in my face on top of it (I did not fly forward towards the wheel, so no need for it).
Joined
·
17 Posts
So Just a quick update on this situation. Subaru had the vehicle held up at the body shop because they wouldn't release any parts until they did an investigation. We just got notified from the bodyshop that they released the first round of parts so that they can actually take the vehicle apart to see the damage that is underneath the "hood". As of now, the estimate is just shy of 10K before they even get started. We don't know if there was any frame damage yet. The traffic light camera, we were told by police, doesn't record, it's only monitored. So there is no video of the accident. The police report came in and stated that the pickup truck pulling a landscaping trailer that struck our Ascent was going approx 50mph. Our collision rep from insurance said he has never seen a vehicle held up for parts like this and for a car company to take so long to get a report done and that they didn't share this report with insurance at all. Insurance did tell us we will get a parts list and the error codes that went off from the independent analyzer from the bodyshop.
We are shocked and disappointed. I hope nobody else goes through this or has a false sense of security. Im so glad our kids were not in the vehicle.
![13402]()
![13403]()
Since we didn't hear back from Subaru about our case or why it was being held up or that their report was finished, and after emailing our case rep from Subaru for a week now we called in and had to talk to someone completely different. He told us the results of their findings and that they could mail us a letter stating those findings. We asked for a copy of the report from them and he said that could be obtained by "retaining a lawyer". He also told us that this type of accident, according to the report, "no abnormalities in the airbag system" and that "the vehicle was impacted in such a way that the airbags were not likely to deploy". We asked if any of the airbag sensors were triggered and he could not tell us that. He was basically telling us to Lawyer up if we wanted to know anything from the report other than the cover letter they are going to send.
We are shocked and disappointed. I hope nobody else goes through this or has a false sense of security. Im so glad our kids were not in the vehicle.
Joined
·
17 Posts
Subaru finally finished their report. It was actually holding the vehicle up from getting parts for repair. They never said anything so we had to call. All they can give to us is a simple cover letter stating the findings of the official report. We asked to get a copy of the official report and read out and the Subaru rep said we would need to retain a lawyer for that.
The thread title states "T-boned", which I think most would probably interpret as hit directly abeam, like in the B-pillar area. It appears that the Ascent was impacted forward of the passenger cabin, near or even just ahead of the front wheel, yes? As the center of the impact strays further in front of the passenger cabin, I'm sure there's a point where the airbags won't deploy. I'm not an automotive safety engineer, but I do know there's also a risk to deploying airbags -- they can be dangerous and cause injuries themselves. I'm sure every car company has to strike a good engineering balance between saving lives from the riskiest impacts and avoiding potential injury from the life-saving devices if the impact is less of a risk to the passenger cabin.
You said your wife was relatively unscathed from the accident, and that's terrific!
You said your wife was relatively unscathed from the accident, and that's terrific!
Joined
·
871 Posts
That’s so crazy,truly hope everything works out for you and your family.
But one thing I noticed in your pics is the point of impact,maybe that’s why the side curtain air bags didn’t deploy.Doesn’t seem to me like a actual “T-bone” hit.Sorry,don’t mean to add salt to the wound.
41 - 60 of 66 Posts
