Subaru Ascent Forum banner
41 - 60 of 89 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,850 Posts
Years ago I had Bridgestone Blizzaks on my minivan but I was surprised how quickly the performance degraded after a couple of years of driving. This was on a front-wheel drive minivan. I continue to buy them as they were always highly rated on the internet. However I switched over to Sumitomo Ice Edge winter tires for the last year of our minivan ownership before getting the Ascent. There was a noticeable improvement in the performance. I am now putting Ice Edge tires back on the Subaru for their second year of use. They were great last year and the car felt like a tank. They are pretty middle of the road when it comes to price. I would definitely recommend them in high snow areas.
I have no opinion on the tire comparison for these two brands. I will note that typically a winter tire last two seasons and at best three. That is the norm before their effectiveness is gone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
I am desperately looking for advice aboutwhether I need snow tires or all weather tires. We moved to Oregon from SF California last year.( yup, we aren’t the most popular kids on the block) Last winter I kept my all season tires on, and my daughter drove up the mountain to the ski lodge and I just drove in town. She’s off to university and now I’m the ski taxi~
First off, I’m not the best driver and am not a seasoned snow driver~ soooooo which tires do I get~ I have looked at the past posts and I am still at a loss! The family buzz is ‘Mom’s gonna kill us driving up the mountain!’
We bought the YOKAHAMA Geloandar G015. They are a great all terrain tire with great traction in the snow.
 

·
Super Moderator
2019 Ascent Touring (CWP)
Joined
·
4,231 Posts
Winter tires usually perform better in snow, but worse in wet and dry conditions than all-season tires. Here in Chicago, during the winter the road is either salted+wet or dry 95% of the time, so it makes sense to go with all-season tires. When the streets are snowy, I'm just extra-careful and drive slowly. Ice is another story entirely -- just don't drive on ice. :)
This is where the new breed of "all weather" tires come in. They are superior to "all season" tires in winter conditions yet have similar great characteristics during the warm weather and wet conditions. True winter tires are still a necessity for folks who live in "real winter weather" areas, but the new all weather offerings extend the flexibility of running one tire farther out than ever before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
Years ago I had Bridgestone Blizzaks on my minivan but I was surprised how quickly the performance degraded after a couple of years of driving. This was on a front-wheel drive minivan. I continue to buy them as they were always highly rated on the internet. However I switched over to Sumitomo Ice Edge winter tires for the last year of our minivan ownership before getting the Ascent. There was a noticeable improvement in the performance. I am now putting Ice Edge tires back on the Subaru for their second year of use. They were great last year and the car felt like a tank. They are pretty middle of the road when it comes to price. I would definitely recommend them in high snow areas.
I have no opinion on the tire comparison for these two brands. I will note that typically a winter tire last two seasons and at best three. That is the norm before their effectiveness is gone.
@packout - Treadwear is not about time... (i.e. the number of "winter seasons") it's about the tire's tread being consumed over miles driven.

While driving the tire makes for a large degree of variables (i.e. inflation pressures, driving style, temperatures and surfaces, etc.) that impact treadwear, the fact remains that if the driver does not drive much, then it can be very likely that the tires will age-out (most sources recommend that tires should be taken out-of-service at 6 years after their year-of-manufacture) before they reach a tread depth that's less-than-optimal in wintry conditions.

I've posted elsewhere that at about 4K miles, I'm at just a hair past 6/32nd on my Blizzak DM-V2s....and that's after just two winters. 😅 😬 I'm going to pop them back on for a winter road-trip and then through the rest of the winter, and retire them thereafter..... A friend of mine is a regional salesperson - as you can imagine, she goes through a set of winters per winter.

Meanwhile, each of my in-laws' 2-year-old WS90s are still at 10/32nd, and will likely age-out before they wear to the winter-platform indicator depth. They don't drive much anymore: no driving = no miles = no wear.

Any of the dual-layer compound Blizzaks ( @AnthonyC , do you recall specifically what Blizzaks they were? ) will transition to a more common winter compound at about the half-way point through their overall tread depth (and this is spec'ed per tire fitment, per specific tire model - i.e. "Blizzak" WS90 versus DM-V2, etc. ). And it should also be noted that as of the winter season of 2018/'19, the then-new WS90 and LM005 both were engineered with full-tread-depth features and increased tread block stiffness in the hopes of enhancing durability (which Bridgestone quoted to be a 30% improvement, targeting their long-time nemesis, Michelin, who, during their North American introduction of the then-new X-Ice Xi2, featured their and Bridgestone's shaved down to half-depth). This transition to a "less special" winter compound plus the decrease in tread depth is essentially a double-bogey.

@AnthonyC , out of curiosity, where are you located?

I'm interpreting your "tank" statement to mean that you were less-than-thrilled with the lateral capabilities of the DM-V2s in frozen precipitation, correct? If so, then that's spot-on with what most comparisons have noted of the WS80-generation tires (of which the DM-V2 is a subset). This relative weakness in lateral performance is another area in which the WS90-generation "Studless Ice & Snows" are looking to improve upon.

And also, while the Sumis are not typically regarded as a top-tier winter tire, I am thinking that it's also possible you live somewhere where it doesn't get quite cold enough for the DM-V2s (or other modern "Studless Ice & Snows") to really shine, versus the more traditional "studdable winter" of the Ice Edge....am I off on this one?

This last part is also the reason why I've been thinking about going back to a set of studded winters for my winter setup as well. FWIW, my studded Pirelli Winter Carving Edge are also not considered a top-tier winter, but at least compared with either my '13 Tribeca or my '16 Outback, given my weather conditions, it also felt to me to have offered more lateral capabilities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
Winter tires usually perform better in snow, but worse in wet and dry conditions than all-season tires. Here in Chicago, during the winter the road is either salted+wet or dry 95% of the time, so it makes sense to go with all-season tires. When the streets are snowy, I'm just extra-careful and drive slowly. Ice is another story entirely -- just don't drive on ice. :)
This is where the new breed of "all weather" tires come in. They are superior to "all season" tires in winter conditions yet have similar great characteristics during the warm weather and wet conditions. True winter tires are still a necessity for folks who live in "real winter weather" areas, but the new all weather offerings extend the flexibility of running one tire farther out than ever before.
So, here's where things get tricky - because even in "'real winter weather' areas" for the vast majority of us, when we look outside the windows, we are most likely -NOT- seeing the streets covered in wintry frozen precipitation. In this respect, I definitely agree with @BoxerRules .

Now, certainly, there are those who do live in such perpetual "permafrost" 😬 conditions - but for those in the Lower 48 who do not live at-altitude, it's actually not what is common for weeks, much less even days-on-end.

I've written about these concessions before, and for the sake of bandwidth, I'll just link to my past posts and threads, instead of giving it the full rehash. :)



There is a strong argument to be made for staying with a winter-capable "All Season" or stepping up to an "All Weather" - especially if there's not always frozen precipitation on the ground, and doubly so if the driver can simply choose not to drive (or to use alternate transportation, including perhaps another vehicle in the family that's more optimized towards winter traction) in the worst conditions.

As I noted in the first of the two cited posts/threads above, to say that winter tires are "safer" for wintry conditions is definitely correct - the performance envelope in wintry conditions is simply considerably larger for winter tires. However, that same margin of safety is decreased when it comes to clear, cold, wet or dry roadways - absent of frozen precipitation.

Logic is logic. It doesn't just go one way. Winter tires are undeniably "safer" in wintry conditions as compared to "All Season" tires; their performance envelope is simply considerably larger when there's wintry precipitation on the roadways. But when the roadways are clear, that favor shifts, and it can just as easily and logically be argued that "All Season" tires will keep you "safer."

A hypothetical scenario:

A driver equips his vehicle with an excellent set of modern "Studdless Ice & Snow" tires for the winter, in preparation for his area's probable two to three bigger/worse winter storms. He views this purchase as an investment, one that can well save his insurance deductible over the course of the lifespan of his tires (the way he drives, for about 4 seasons, +/- three winters, total). His area, however, rarely gets such storms, and most of the time, he spends his time on well-maintained highways and streets that are simply wet. Occasion arises that he needs to panic-stop - full-tilt ABS - one night on his way home from work as the driver in front reacted to an incident: his awesome-for-the-winter "Studless Ice & Snow" can't make the best of such a circumstance and he winds up lightly rear-ending the stopped vehicle in front of him - braking distance that he knows should have been more than sufficient to have stopped his vehicle if he had his "usual" tires on.

Not a likely scenario?

All we have to do is to take a glance back to Car & Driver's data from 2009 (yes, I know that this is 10-year-old data, but if you look at my other cited thread above, I compiled similar data from 2017, 2018, and 2019) - 2009 Winter Tire Test: at a rather cold 23 deg. F., on a wet-only surface, the "All Season" MXM4 required 140 ft. to come to a stop from 60 MPH. In those same conditions, the "Studless Ice & Snow" Xi2 required 174 ft. to achieve the same.

Sure, the same data definitely says that the Xi2s would have saved this driver's bacon had the same scenario played out on snow-covered roads - but as many of us can well see when we look out the window, "winter" isn't just all ice and snow.

Overall, we have to humble ourselves and remember that "accidents" ostensibly happen precisely because we missed something. ;)

To suggest that we can be just a bit more careful when driving on "All Season" tires when there's wintry precipitation on the road carries with it the same exact pitfalls that comes from thinking that we can exercise that similar level of care when we're driving in the clear, on our "Winter Tires."

And to those who would choose to split the difference between the two, with "All Weather" tires, as @Jim_in_PA suggested? The same caution, too. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I am desperately looking for advice aboutwhether I need snow tires or all weather tires. We moved to Oregon from SF California last year.( yup, we aren’t the most popular kids on the block) Last winter I kept my all season tires on, and my daughter drove up the mountain to the ski lodge and I just drove in town. She’s off to university and now I’m the ski taxi~
First off, I’m not the best driver and am not a seasoned snow driver~ soooooo which tires do I get~ I have looked at the past posts and I am still at a loss! The family buzz is ‘Mom’s gonna kill us driving up the mountain!’
Picking up on some prior replies, to help define whether you need something different, how well did last year's tires meet your needs? In what types of weather were they insufficient?
IF, as suggested, you can afford to stay off the road in the absolute worst weather in order to avoid changing tires every spring and fall, LOOK at and read reviews of the Michelin CrossClimate (yes, available at CostCo). It has been a truism that aggressive tread for good handling in snow comes at the expense of increased road noise. These have AGGRESSIVE tread. I just bought a set; they do NOT have increased road noise. Contrary to popular opinion, Minnesota is not yet 10' deep in snow, so I can't tell you how they perform in snow, but they do have aggressive tread, and the reviews say that they do well in snow. IF you need ICE traction rather than snow, the reviews of this tire don't say much about that............... From previous reading, ice typically needs a soft tread, which would not wear well in summer temperatures.
 

·
Registered
2021 Ascent Limited Black/Black
Joined
·
429 Posts
So many good thoughts in this thread, and here and there some conflicting thoughts that ultimately come down to personal choice/preference as well as one's definition of "winter conditions". As for myself, I guess I have a fairly middle of the road opinion on this, probably as a result of living in both extremes as well as more of a middle ground. I grew up in San Antonio, so winter tires were never a thought or a need, except might have come in handy once a decade or so when we'd get a freak snowstorm. I also lived in Alaska for 9 years, so winter tires there were super important, as in one could drive for months without your tires ever once touching pavement. And that part makes me wonder a bit about some of the posters who say winter tires are usually only good for a couple of seasons. Granted, it's been over 20 years since I lived in Alaska, but when I lived there my winter tires would hardly wear at all, because pavement is what wears out tires, snow and ice not nearly as much. (maybe I'm totally off base here, so correct me if I'm wrong) So several seasons of winter driving and my tires tread seemed nearly unchanged. The only real wear I remember seeing where on the studs, because on thinner ice they would sometimes claw their way through and reach pavement.
Anyway, for the past 20 plus years I've been living in Portland, so much more mixed conditions here. Mostly rain, occasionally snow, and then trips up to Mt. Hood to frolic in the snow on occasion. So for me whatever all seasons were rated decently well for snow were the best all around choice until the newer/better all weather choices came on the scene. Having just purchased a set of the Goodyear Weatherreadys, I'm super looking forward to how they do up on Mt. Hood and in our occasional in town snowstorms, as well as how they do in the ten zillion rainy days we get here as well. Anyway, for me it makes the most sense to get the best tire for mixed conditions if you live in a place with very mixed conditions. Using dedicated winter tires when only 5 or 10% of your driving will be in winter conditions is probably just as bad as using basic summer highway tires when only 10% of your driving is on dry highway roads.
And of course, if one ever faces wintery conditions way worse than your tires can handle, there's always cable chains/etc for those rare occasions. In 30 years of driving Subarus, the only times I ever felt like I needed to chain up when I didn't have studded snow tires on was when the conditions were super icy. Driving on ice can get downright terrifying.
(damn, I'm kinda long winded tonight, sorry:rolleyes:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,850 Posts
So many good thoughts in this thread, and here and there some conflicting thoughts that ultimately come down to personal choice/preference as well as one's definition of "winter conditions". As for myself, I guess I have a fairly middle of the road opinion on this, probably as a result of living in both extremes as well as more of a middle ground. I grew up in San Antonio, so winter tires were never a thought or a need, except might have come in handy once a decade or so when we'd get a freak snowstorm. I also lived in Alaska for 9 years, so winter tires there were super important, as in one could drive for months without your tires ever once touching pavement. And that part makes me wonder a bit about some of the posters who say winter tires are usually only good for a couple of seasons. Granted, it's been over 20 years since I lived in Alaska, but when I lived there my winter tires would hardly wear at all, because pavement is what wears out tires, snow and ice not nearly as much. (maybe I'm totally off base here, so correct me if I'm wrong) So several seasons of winter driving and my tires tread seemed nearly unchanged. The only real wear I remember seeing where on the studs, because on thinner ice they would sometimes claw their way through and reach pavement.
Anyway, for the past 20 plus years I've been living in Portland, so much more mixed conditions here. Mostly rain, occasionally snow, and then trips up to Mt. Hood to frolic in the snow on occasion. So for me whatever all seasons were rated decently well for snow were the best all around choice until the newer/better all weather choices came on the scene. Having just purchased a set of the Goodyear Weatherreadys, I'm super looking forward to how they do up on Mt. Hood and in our occasional in town snowstorms, as well as how they do in the ten zillion rainy days we get here as well. Anyway, for me it makes the most sense to get the best tire for mixed conditions if you live in a place with very mixed conditions. Using dedicated winter tires when only 5 or 10% of your driving will be in winter conditions is probably just as bad as using basic summer highway tires when only 10% of your driving is on dry highway roads.
And of course, if one ever faces wintery conditions way worse than your tires can handle, there's always cable chains/etc for those rare occasions. In 30 years of driving Subarus, the only times I ever felt like I needed to chain up when I didn't have studded snow tires on was when the conditions were super icy. Driving on ice can get downright terrifying.
(damn, I'm kinda long winded tonight, sorry:rolleyes:)
Winter tires are said to be useful at lower temps, not just for snow and or covered roads. Even here in Denver snow on roads are rare compared to simply lower winter temps. Then of course there is the drive up the mountains throughout the winter to consider. Are drivers to change out there tires every other weak or so? No easy answers and frankly it is exhausting. Since I do not drive agressively, only extreme conditions of storms or emergency stopping would provide the feedback to me on comparative tire effectiveness. I am mostly interested in addtessing the cold dry days. The data on those parameters are mixed over the years.
 

·
Super Moderator
2019 Ascent Touring (CWP)
Joined
·
4,231 Posts
Winter tires are said to be useful at lower temps, not just for snow and or covered roads.
^^ This. And that's what I really meant about folks living in places with "real winter", not just about precipitation.
 

·
Registered
2021 Ascent Limited Black/Black
Joined
·
429 Posts
Winter tires are said to be useful at lower temps, not just for snow and or covered roads. Even here in Denver snow on roads are rare compared to simply lower winter temps. Then of course there is the drive up the mountains throughout the winter to consider. Are drivers to change out there tires every other weak or so? No easy answers and frankly it is exhausting. Since I do not drive agressively, only extreme conditions of storms or emergency stopping would provide the feedback to me on comparative tire effectiveness. I am mostly interested in addtessing the cold dry days. The data on those parameters are mixed over the years.
Yeah, good point about the low temps factoring into the equation. Maybe decades from now there will be a super tire that is great in all temps, all conditions, and guaranteed for the life of the car. Until then, things can get complicated and tricky, especially in mixed conditions, temps as well as rain, snow, ice, etc.
 

·
Registered
2021 Ascent Limited
Joined
·
67 Posts
I am desperately looking for advice aboutwhether I need snow tires or all weather tires. We moved to Oregon from SF California last year.( yup, we aren’t the most popular kids on the block) Last winter I kept my all season tires on, and my daughter drove up the mountain to the ski lodge and I just drove in town. She’s off to university and now I’m the ski taxi~
First off, I’m not the best driver and am not a seasoned snow driver~ soooooo which tires do I get~ I have looked at the past posts and I am still at a loss! The family buzz is ‘Mom’s gonna kill us driving up the mountain!’
I live on the east side of the Cascade Crest in Cle Elum Washington and winter in Wyoming. Upon purchase of my 2021 Ltd in November 2020, I purchased a set of Michelin Xi 13 (?). They have been great!
 

·
Premium Member
2021 Ascent Touring
Joined
·
256 Posts
I am desperately looking for advice aboutwhether I need snow tires or all weather tires. We moved to Oregon from SF California last year.( yup, we aren’t the most popular kids on the block) Last winter I kept my all season tires on, and my daughter drove up the mountain to the ski lodge and I just drove in town. She’s off to university and now I’m the ski taxi~
First off, I’m not the best driver and am not a seasoned snow driver~ soooooo which tires do I get~ I have looked at the past posts and I am still at a loss! The family buzz is ‘Mom’s gonna kill us driving up the mountain!’
There are a ton of useful posts here, but I'm going to give some regional specific advice. Feel free not to out yourself, but I'm going to assume you fit one of 2 profiles based on your recent geographic history, and go from there.

1. You moved to the Portland area and are headed up to Ski Bowl/Meadows/Timberline. In that case, get some 3 peaks rated A/T (I like Falken Wildpeak A/T Trails, but plenty of other great options) or all weather (people here love the Michelin Cross Climates, but again...lots of options) and carry a pair of AutoSocks (that you'll never use) and enjoy the mountain. Trust me, you do NOT need dedicated snow tires (studded or not) for this use case. It certainly won't hurt you to get a set of studless snow tires, but you won't need them for 99.3% of your driving...and that other 0.7% you should be staying at home.

2. You moved to Bend and are headed up to Bachelor (and maybe Hoodoo). In that case, get you some snow tires as you'll probably need them for in town too.
 

·
Registered
2021 Ascent Limited Black/Black
Joined
·
429 Posts
There are a ton of useful posts here, but I'm going to give some regional specific advice. Feel free not to out yourself, but I'm going to assume you fit one of 2 profiles based on your recent geographic history, and go from there.

1. You moved to the Portland area and are headed up to Ski Bowl/Meadows/Timberline. In that case, get some 3 peaks rated A/T (I like Falken Wildpeak A/T Trails, but plenty of other great options) or all weather (people here love the Michelin Cross Climates, but again...lots of options) and carry a pair of AutoSocks (that you'll never use) and enjoy the mountain. Trust me, you do NOT need dedicated snow tires (studded or not) for this use case. It certainly won't hurt you to get a set of studless snow tires, but you won't need them for 99.3% of your driving...and that other 0.7% you should be staying at home.

2. You moved to Bend and are headed up to Bachelor (and maybe Hoodoo). In that case, get you some snow tires as you'll probably need them for in town too.
Yeah, I agree with this. A lot depends on where exactly they live. If it's here in Portland where 90% or more of winter driving is drizzly and 50 degrees outside, I wouldn't think snow tires would be the way to go. Also depends I guess if the family heads up to Hood every weekend all winter long, or just the occasional outing for some fun in the snow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
So many good thoughts in this thread, and here and there some conflicting thoughts that ultimately come down to personal choice/preference as well as one's definition of "winter conditions". As for myself, I guess I have a fairly middle of the road opinion on this, probably as a result of living in both extremes as well as more of a middle ground. I grew up in San Antonio, so winter tires were never a thought or a need, except might have come in handy once a decade or so when we'd get a freak snowstorm. I also lived in Alaska for 9 years, so winter tires there were super important, as in one could drive for months without your tires ever once touching pavement. And that part makes me wonder a bit about some of the posters who say winter tires are usually only good for a couple of seasons. Granted, it's been over 20 years since I lived in Alaska, but when I lived there my winter tires would hardly wear at all, because pavement is what wears out tires, snow and ice not nearly as much. (maybe I'm totally off base here, so correct me if I'm wrong) So several seasons of winter driving and my tires tread seemed nearly unchanged. The only real wear I remember seeing where on the studs, because on thinner ice they would sometimes claw their way through and reach pavement.
Exactly - and excellent point: on actual wintry precipitation, wear is minimized (although the surface of ice that's well below the freezing point, at where modern "Studless Ice & Snows" have more traction than even studded tires - that kind of surface is capable of generating friction that's akin to bare paved roadway surfaces; but to counter that, the tread of these tires are optimized for such conditions).

I really should have been more specific, and I both sincerely thank you for the correction as well as will note it for the future: it's the clear-roadway miles that kills tread.

Driving on ice can get downright terrifying.
Again, absolutely -

There's so many different factors that go into how ice behaves. Over the years, I've read more than once the various overseas winter testing bodies lament on the fact that they are unable to reproduce (all) the varied icy conditions that motorists in their geographic area. Temperature (both ambient and roadway), humidity, how trafficked the ice happens to have been previous to testing, etc. - it all plays into it. This has been why I've consistently written that The Tire Rack's ice-rink test is both the best and the worst possible, as it is such a strictly controlled surface.

(damn, I'm kinda long winded tonight, sorry:rolleyes:)
Are you kidding?! You've seen my posts, right? 😅 I feel like I owe people money for having taken up their time! :giggle:


-----


Winter tires are said to be useful at lower temps, not just for snow and or covered roads. Even here in Denver snow on roads are rare compared to simply lower winter temps. Then of course there is the drive up the mountains throughout the winter to consider. Are drivers to change out there tires every other weak or so? No easy answers and frankly it is exhausting. Since I do not drive agressively, only extreme conditions of storms or emergency stopping would provide the feedback to me on comparative tire effectiveness. I am mostly interested in addtessing the cold dry days. The data on those parameters are mixed over the years.
^^ This. And that's what I really meant about folks living in places with "real winter", not just about precipitation.
Yeah, good point about the low temps factoring into the equation. Maybe decades from now there will be a super tire that is great in all temps, all conditions, and guaranteed for the life of the car. Until then, things can get complicated and tricky, especially in mixed conditions, temps as well as rain, snow, ice, etc.
Actually, the data has not been equivocal - "cold/clear" (i.e. cold -including wet- but without frozen precipitation on the roadway) has always favored less extreme winterized options.

Again, we can first go back to the 2009 Car & Driver testing that I cited above - 2009 Winter Tire Test: at a rather cold 23 deg. F., on a wet-only surface, the "All Season" MXM4 required 140 ft. to come to a stop from 60 MPH. In those same conditions, the "Studless Ice & Snow" Xi2 required 174 ft. to achieve the same.

And specifically both towards this as well as the marketing-driven "45-deg. F/7-deg. C. switch-point" I've written repeatedly and in-detail, citing actual testing data, that proves that these are points of inertia in our continued old-think: modern "All Season," "All Weather," and "Winter Tires" simply aren't compromised in this manner, when we sit down to actually look at the hard numbers.


^ That's not just me spewing sweeping generalizations and parroting marketing drivel - that's a hard and objective look at the testing data that some of the most respected winter tire testing bodies -sources cited by enthusiasts worldwide- generated from 2017 to 2019.

And while the origin data that I cited above may be over a decade old, but it still holds true today per these more recent tests - and I really feel that we should all take the time to understand exactly what its implications are for both our own driving needs, as well as when we make recommendations to others.

The data is unequivocal - unless there is actually frozen precipitation on the ground, "All Season" and "All Weather" tires may well be a better choice, even with ambient and roadway temperatures that are well below what we have been force-fed by vested-interest sources (i.e. ads and marketing literature), that magical "45-deg. F/7-deg. C. switch-point." Furthermore, even in areas that see wintry conditions more often, there's nothing wrong in splitting the difference and going with either "All Weather" or "Performance Winter" tires - defaulting to "Studless Ice and Snow" or studdable winters is oftentimes not what will result in best performance.

Back in the mid-oughts, one Russian enthusiast magazine said it best: that there is no need to put on winter tires before the season's first chance of frozen precipitation, and there's no need to delay dismounting the same as soon as such weather risks have passed.

Finally, "not driving aggressively" is not a valid argument - as I've written above, "accidents" happen precisely because of something having gone awry (whether that's something that's within or without our control is irrelevant) and by-definition arrives unexpectedly. If we are debating the merits of the tires, we should simply be focused on their objective performance characteristics, which in and of themselves are not based on how we ourselves may tackle the task of driving. It's about the merit of the tires, and tires alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
I live on the east side of the Cascade Crest in Cle Elum Washington and winter in Wyoming. Upon purchase of my 2021 Ltd in November 2020, I purchased a set of Michelin Xi 13 (?). They have been great!
There are a ton of useful posts here, but I'm going to give some regional specific advice.
Yeah, I agree with this. A lot depends on where exactly they live.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! (y)

I wrote about this years ago on NASIOC, lamenting how so often, at the time, customer-service representatives and sales staff at even the largest tire retailers tend to make sweeping generalizations on their tire recommendations as based on geographic area, without truly understand what that specific driver faces.

As a personal example, I live right at the cusp between the Primary and Secondary Snow Belts here in NE-Ohio. On my 5-mile commute to/from work, I can go from a cold, wet roadway all the way to heavy snowfall and inches of fresh powder - from well-groomed streets to a slushy nightmare to totally and completely untreated.... So in my metro area, any of a number of recommendations would be more than correct, but depending on exactly where -and when (i.e. if the drive occurs prior to municipal street maintenance)- the drive occurs, that can significantly impact the decision tree.

And this is very illustrated in a previous post by another member -

Winter tires usually perform better in snow, but worse in wet and dry conditions than all-season tires. Here in Chicago, during the winter the road is either salted+wet or dry 95% of the time, so it makes sense to go with all-season tires.
^ @BoxerRules ' post is a perfect example of this - where a specific driving scenario makes all the difference.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,850 Posts
Exactly - and excellent point: on actual wintry precipitation, wear is minimized (although the surface of ice that's well below the freezing point, at where modern "Studless Ice & Snows" have more traction than even studded tires - that kind of surface is capable of generating friction that's akin to bare paved roadway surfaces; but to counter that, the tread of these tires are optimized for such conditions).

I really should have been more specific, and I both sincerely thank you for the correction as well as will note it for the future: it's the clear-roadway miles that kills tread.



Again, absolutely -

There's so many different factors that go into how ice behaves. Over the years, I've read more than once the various overseas winter testing bodies lament on the fact that they are unable to reproduce (all) the varied icy conditions that motorists in their geographic area. Temperature (both ambient and roadway), humidity, how trafficked the ice happens to have been previous to testing, etc. - it all plays into it. This has been why I've consistently written that The Tire Rack's ice-rink test is both the best and the worst possible, as it is such a strictly controlled surface.



Are you kidding?! You've seen my posts, right? 😅 I feel like I owe people money for having taken up their time! :giggle:


-----








Actually, the data has not been equivocal - "cold/clear" (i.e. cold -including wet- but without frozen precipitation on the roadway) has always favored less extreme winterized options.

Again, we can first go back to the 2009 Car & Driver testing that I cited above - 2009 Winter Tire Test: at a rather cold 23 deg. F., on a wet-only surface, the "All Season" MXM4 required 140 ft. to come to a stop from 60 MPH. In those same conditions, the "Studless Ice & Snow" Xi2 required 174 ft. to achieve the same.

And specifically both towards this as well as the marketing-driven "45-deg. F/7-deg. C. switch-point" I've written repeatedly and in-detail, citing actual testing data, that proves that these are points of inertia in our continued old-think: modern "All Season," "All Weather," and "Winter Tires" simply aren't compromised in this manner, when we sit down to actually look at the hard numbers.


^ That's not just me spewing sweeping generalizations and parroting marketing drivel - that's a hard and objective look at the testing data that some of the most respected winter tire testing bodies -sources cited by enthusiasts worldwide- generated from 2017 to 2019.

And while the origin data that I cited above may be over a decade old, but it still holds true today per these more recent tests - and I really feel that we should all take the time to understand exactly what its implications are for both our own driving needs, as well as when we make recommendations to others.

The data is unequivocal - unless there is actually frozen precipitation on the ground, "All Season" and "All Weather" tires may well be a better choice, even with ambient and roadway temperatures that are well below what we have been force-fed by vested-interest sources (i.e. ads and marketing literature), that magical "45-deg. F/7-deg. C. switch-point." Furthermore, even in areas that see wintry conditions more often, there's nothing wrong in splitting the difference and going with either "All Weather" or "Performance Winter" tires - defaulting to "Studless Ice and Snow" or studdable winters is oftentimes not what will result in best performance.

Back in the mid-oughts, one Russian enthusiast magazine said it best: that there is no need to put on winter tires before the season's first chance of frozen precipitation, and there's no need to delay dismounting the same as soon as such weather risks have passed.

Finally, "not driving aggressively" is not a valid argument - as I've written above, "accidents" happen precisely because of something having gone awry (whether that's something that's within or without our control is irrelevant) and by-definition arrives unexpectedly. If we are debating the merits of the tires, we should simply be focused on their objective performance characteristics, which in and of themselves are not based on how we ourselves may tackle the task of driving. It's about the merit of the tires, and tires alone.
I would appreciate Discount Tire chiming in. I do not recall their contribution to the threads on this topic over the last few years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
I would appreciate Discount Tire chiming in. I do not recall their contribution to the threads on this topic over the last few years.
I'd definitely welcome that! :) I've had limited engagements with tire-industry professionals before, and it's always been positive and enriching for me - I've learned quite a bit from those individuals (such as the Michelin engineer who gave a very simple yet something-I'd-never-think-of-myself reply to why in testing, outright UHP "Summer Tires" can perform so well on cold/frozen pavement that's free of frozen precipitation versus "Winter Tires" - "Well, they generate their own heat as they roll, and the roadway is itself warmed by passing traffic....."), as my knowledge-base is only hobbyist-level, at-best.

And towards that end, I'd love a pro's eyes to look over the test-results that I'd summarized in this thread -


^ specifically to see if my interpretation of what's been translated actually is on-point, or if I've made a mistake somewhere.

The truth of the matter is that those of us who love winter tires start looking for these overseas tests by the German ADAC, as well as publications Auto-Bild, AMS, Auto Zeitung, the Finnish NAF, the Russian Auto Review - and even the Brits' AutoExpress, at about the same time as they come out each year (September/October), and eagerly call on our language-proficient friends or use Google Translate to pore over the data, to debate its merits and ponder the surprises, as you can see in this BITOG Forum post from when the WS90 (and its cousins) first came on-scene:


The truth is that we winter-tire hobbyists here in North America have -and still do- kowtow to leading European sources simply because they've done it for much longer (and are thus more knowledgeable if by nothing other than time-on-task) and are more sophisticated in their methodology and means (NA winter-tire shoppers marvel at the fact that Tire Rack tests ice traction on an ice rink....take a look at what many of these Euro powerhouses use: Winter Tyre Testing Facility | Vehicle Test Track | Test World ). The modern "Winter Tire" market here in the US really didn't take off until the turn of the century, and even when I came into it in the early oughts, many enthusiasts didn't even understand the difference between a "Studless Ice & Snow" versus a "Performance Winter." By that time, the Russians had already solidified their findings about the temperature-versus frozen-precipitation relationship. This was only validated by the British barely over a half-decade ago (https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2014-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm). And we can see in even this very thread here that despite subsequent years of hard data found in many of these overseas sources, this is still a fact that's hard for many North American enthusiasts to reconcile.....

Just repeating the marketing catchphrase of "45-deg. (F) and switch" enough times won't make it magically come true. ;) Testing data from the last decade and a half has proven this catchphrase to be demonstrably false. Same with suggesting that "All Seasons" can't perform as well as comparable-quality "Winter Tires" in cold but clear (i.e. free of frozen precipitation) conditions: the data just doesn't support such an argument.

...But maybe I am the one who's mistaken - that's certainly more than possible: just ask my wife and my daughter! 😅 So, yes, I'd definitely welcome a second read of the data that I'd cited. If someone can go through that data as I have, point-by-point, and correct any mistakes I may have made, I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to correct my line of thinking. :giggle:(y)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
Updated this thread with some 2021 fun.....


Yup, that "45-deg. and switch" marketing slogan? It still doesn't mesh with the data from the last going-on-17 years.
 
41 - 60 of 89 Posts
Top